Podcast Episode 118 Transcript: How should we handle grief?

Listen to the full episode here or watch on YouTube.

[00:00:00] Don: But that pausing is so powerful in so much of our life that if we could practice, I mean, that's why I think Sabbath is so significant.

[00:00:07] Sarah: Right.

[00:00:08] Don: Is it, so a pause in the week. And I think if we can find more places to pause that we're gonna be healthier when it comes to grieving.

[00:00:17] We're gonna be healthier when it comes to any emotion, and we're gonna be healthier for those around us who are experiencing emotions that, um, are, are hurting them right now.

[00:00:27] ​

[00:00:32] Tana: Hello and welcome to the Ancient Jesus Future Faith Podcast. I'm Tana and I'm here with my usual co-host, Sarah Mainardi.

[00:00:42] Sarah: Hello,

[00:00:42] Tana: and Don Schiewer.

[00:00:43] Don: Hey.

[00:00:44] Tana: And today we are going to talk about grief. Uh, the last two episodes of the podcast were on emotions, um, emotions part one was sort of a more general emotions sort of thing.

[00:00:59] Uh, emotions part two is about happiness. And we thought, you know, we're recording this in between Thanksgiving and Christmas and it's a time of year when a lot of people. Struggle with grief. It's a, it's a very difficult time if you've lost a loved one. Um, so we thought we would address this topic, um, at this time.

[00:01:23] So, to start us off, I, I wanna ask you two if you think either Christians specifically or society as a whole handle grief well.

[00:01:42] Sarah: No.

[00:01:44] Don: I would say since my framework has been predominantly within Christian settings, Christianity does not handle it well. Um, my experience with people outside of [00:02:00] faith is also not, well. I do believe there are some religions that do actually handle it well. Um, and I'm sure there are some non-religious people that handle it well, but I think overall, yeah, I don't, I don't think, I don't think we're equipped.

[00:02:18] It's, it's, it's like a taboo thing to talk about. And so because of death being like, kind of like you, it's not something people sit around the table and talk about that. It always catches people. . So death is one of the areas I'm primarily thinking of with grief, but also just handling or dealing with unexpected, um, events.

[00:02:44] Tana: Yeah.

[00:02:45] Don: In fact, I think Christianity actually, the way it has been taught in evangelicalism actually points us towards not handling it well because our expectations are set up so unhealthy.

[00:02:59] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:03:00] Don: So, yeah.

[00:03:02] Sarah: Yeah. We experience a lot of losses in our life. It's the nature I mean, from the minute we're born, our body, you know, or become adults, our body's just like decaying until we die.

[00:03:14] Don: right.

[00:03:14] Tana: Yeah.

[00:03:15] Sarah: Uh, you know, we have so many limits and losses that grief can cover a wide variety of things. And, um, I think often the Christian response is to, uh, just keep rejoicing and don't, don't dwell on it. Don't cry too much. Um, celebrate the life, not mourn the death type of things.

[00:03:38] Tana: Yeah.

[00:03:39] It's the celebrate the life, not mourn the death part that I have found difficult over the years.

[00:03:46] Like, yeah. And I don't have, I don't have a problem with, like, when my grandfather died, we had a luncheon after his funeral. Um, and everybody shared like, funny grandpa stories.

[00:03:59] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:03:59] Tana: He was a [00:04:00] hilarious guy.

[00:04:00] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:04:01] Tana: Um, and, and he also like just a little bit of a, um, curmudgeon, you know, and so people would share like his,

[00:04:08] Don: a little?

[00:04:10] Tana: Yeah. Well he was a short too. Is that what you're getting at ?

[00:04:12] Don: No, no, I just meant, I meant, I meant he was a professional curmudgeon.

[00:04:17] Tana: Yeah, he was. He was.

[00:04:18] Don: But in the most endearing way, right?

[00:04:20] Tana: Yeah, he was, well, he was a little Italian guy. He was endearing. Um, and so I think that's great, like having that kind of thing where you're sharing memories, like I think that's great, but, um, I have difficulty with the oh, they're in a better place, like all those things where you are grieving and someone, it feels like someone is not honoring your grief.

[00:04:50] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:04:50] Tana: By being like, well, you should be happy they're with God. And I'm like, I'm not happy cuz they're not with me. Right. Like, that's a legitimate feeling.

[00:04:58] Don: So it feels to me like grief is like the friend that everyone avoids.

[00:05:06] Like, you know, that it's probably good to hang out with them every now and then and, uh, it's good for everyone, but uh, you just avoid it. Like, and, and everyone is like complicit in that, right? Like, it feels like when, like a funeral I think is a big example.

[00:05:23] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:05:23] Don: Where everyone around is trying to help people avoid grieving.

[00:05:29] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:05:30] Don: Like think of the happy times, like as soon as someone starts to get sad.

[00:05:33] Tana: Yeah.

[00:05:33] Don: Think like it's always trying to switch you away from that emotion of grief, which is, is problematic, I think.

[00:05:40] Tana: Yeah.

[00:05:42] Sarah: Can I share this? I think this fits perfectly. This is, um, from Emotional Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero.

[00:05:48] He gives this example. It says "Hilda, a young Jewish student, worked part-time at a New York University when a fellow student, a Christian, died of cancer. She attended the funeral. [00:06:00] As the service began, the family announced that this would not be a time for mourning, but a celebration. They remembered and thanked God for the gift of their daughter who died.

[00:06:08] They sang songs of praise. They quoted scripture about God working all things together for good to those who love him. In disbelief, Hilda sat through the service wondering, 'are these people for real? Do they have any emotions at all?' By the time she returned to work the next day, she was angry, livid that the tragic loss of her friend had been treated.

[00:06:28] So glibly. Finally, she exploded at lunch to another Christian acquaintance at her job who also attended the funeral. Don't you people cry or mourn? I don't get it. Are you people, human beings at all?"

[00:06:40] Tana: Hmm.

[00:06:41] Don: Yeah. I, that's so spot on. Um, in fact, uh, you know, in the book of Jeremiah, God, God, Uh, Jeremiah to go out and hire professional mourners.

[00:06:55] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:56] Don: So God can wail at the top of God's lungs.

[00:06:59] Tana: Yeah.

[00:07:00] Don: And Sarah, I don't know if, are you gonna go into that, that kind of space of the, the whalers and everything?

[00:07:06] Sarah: No, go for it.

[00:07:07] Don: Um, so just a real small piece about that, the reason that professional mourners or whatever were hired or people would.

[00:07:18] Provide that service for friends or family was, so they would draw all the attention, and that way the family members could mourn and cry and weep

[00:07:30] Tana: Hmm

[00:07:30] Don: to whatever degree and not feel like they were being the center of attention. And so it pulled the attention away from them and also created an atmosphere that said it was okay to just wail.

[00:07:41] Tana: Yeah.

[00:07:42] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:07:42] Don: Um, and boy,

[00:07:45] Sarah: That's amazing.

[00:07:46] Don: Yeah. It's, it's beautiful.

[00:07:47] Tana: I, I feel like we like, kind of along those lines, um, we also put like a timer on grief.

[00:07:54] Sarah: Yep.

[00:07:55] Tana: Uh, and I think I'm thinking specifically about how, like most places I've [00:08:00] worked, if you, uh, lose somebody, you get like three paid days off. And I'm sure if you're an hourly worker, you probably don't get any paid days off.

[00:08:10] You just have to deal with it. Um, and I, I just remember thinking, and it doesn't matter, like if it's like your cousin that you haven't seen in forever versus your spouse, you know, and it's just, it's so strange to me that it's just like no matter what your relation is, you just get these three days. And I think, man, if I lose like a parent or my son or my husband, like,

[00:08:37] that would be, I just can't imagine being like, yep, three days is good.

[00:08:41] Don: Well, I think, I think it's probably just that they're only willing to pay you for three of those days.

[00:08:46] Tana: Sure.

[00:08:46] Don: You could take a week off and they're not going to do anything about it, but I, but they're only gonna pay you for three of them, which has its own problems.

[00:08:54] Tana: Right. I mean, I think that's one, a problem in and of itself. And two, I am willing to bet that there are employers out there who, if you took more un more time, even if it was unpaid, they would frown upon that.

[00:09:05] Don: Well, I do think that there's a difference between capitalism and people.

[00:09:09] And capitalism does not care about our emotions.

[00:09:12] And unfortunately, I think people have taken the cue from capitalism.

[00:09:16] Tana: Mm.

[00:09:16] Don: Like we've taken that, that like, to me, I think it's, it's a shame. I think that companies should be more generous with staff, but I get the, the only giving a certain amount of paid time off. But I think people have taken that cue as, oh, you only get so many DA- paid days-

[00:09:37] paid off. Oh my gosh. I can't say this sentence. You only get so many days that are paid that you may take off, and so therefore that must be the appropriate amount of time.

[00:09:50] Tana: Mm.

[00:09:51] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:09:52] Don: And, and that's, that's just. So how do you guys feel like with, like, we've predominantly [00:10:00] focused on death in these first few minutes.

[00:10:03] Like I'm, I'm thinking about just grief in general. Yeah. I, I don't think that we, we do well, and again, I think we're taught to avoid it. Yeah. I mean, what are, what are you guys' experiences with that?

[00:10:17] Sarah: Yeah, I think there's almost like a reward in Christian circles if you like, um, don't dwell on the difficult emotions too long.

[00:10:26] Tana: Hmm.

[00:10:27] Sarah: That you're like praised if like you're going through a hard time and you still come to church or you're going through a hard time and you say those platitudes, um, about like rejoicing always and things like that. And I think, um, well one of the things I, one of the verses I think people go to is Psalm 30, verse five, which is crying may last for a night, but joy comes in the morning.

[00:10:51] . . . And when I think about that, and I look at it in context, number one, I think a case could be made that that's actually talking about God in the midst of that. But also it goes back to the genre idea that the Psalms are prayers. It's more of a form of poetry than a list of like practical life instructions.

[00:11:13] So to me, When you express that idea poetically, then you don't hold literally that you're only allowed to cry one night.

[00:11:21] Don: Right.

[00:11:22] Sarah: And you're supposed to feel joy the next morning. It's a bigger idea.

[00:11:25] Tana: Yeah.

[00:11:25] That like maybe that the night can last varying amounts of time. The dark night, right?

[00:11:33] Don: Yeah.

[00:11:33] Sarah: That idea.

[00:11:34] But that there will be joy and happiness at some point.

[00:11:38] Don: Well, I think you touched on it, right, that if that was written by any other poet in any other time in history, people would be like, wow, that's a beautiful line and I totally get it right. . , but they won't go, and therefore I need to suck it up come morning.

[00:11:52] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:11:53] Don: Like instead, they would really just see it as darkness and light and tears and, and joy. Like [00:12:00] they, they wouldn't apply. The religiosity to it. That makes it quite so formal. Yeah.

[00:12:08] Tana: Well, and the Literalness, right?

[00:12:10] Don: Literal was thank you. Literal was the word I was trying to find yeah.

[00:12:13] Tana: And also wasn't like, isn't there an idea that, you know, Uh, God didn't create the world in six actual days.

[00:12:22] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:12:22] Tana: Like a day was like longer.

[00:12:24] Don: Well,

[00:12:24] Tana: you know,

[00:12:25] Don: again,

[00:12:25] Tana: I mean, depending on who you would talk to.

[00:12:28] Don: Yes. There's there's a large faction of people that believe in six literal days

[00:12:32] Tana: Yeah.

[00:12:32] Don: of creation.

[00:12:33] Sarah: Yeah. There's probably many words like that in the Bible that mean something very specific to us because of the way we, in our culture, view time and the way we use those words.

[00:12:41] Tana: Yeah.

[00:12:41] Don: Right.

[00:12:42] Sarah: That could possibly mean different things in the original intention. Yeah.

[00:12:48] Don: Yeah. I mean, think about like the creation, for instance. I, I don't think that the original authors were trying to give us a timeline. They were trying to give us a chronology of, uh, like a hierarchy of the world. Um, the, a way to understand like where man, it falls within the creation.

[00:13:09] Uh, hierarchy, uh, and, you know, to explain Sabbath and all that, it, they're not, you know, the, the author is not trying to communicate, you know, a timeline or a recipe for you to go and create your own world sometime in six days.

[00:13:25] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:27] Tana: Hmm.

[00:13:28] Don: Do you think that the theology of like this idea that if we had more faith.

[00:13:40] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:13:40] Don: We, things wouldn't go wrong.

[00:13:42] Tana: Ugh.

[00:13:42] Sarah: Or if we were in God's will. If we were doing God's will.

[00:13:45] Don: Right.

[00:13:45] Sarah: I think that, um, that is, yeah. Like it just reminds me of some things I was writing in my notes that, um, we sometimes think or hear these ideas, and this also goes [00:14:00] into other difficult emotions, but that like, um, sadness indicates a lack of faith in the promises of God.

[00:14:06] Don: Yeah.

[00:14:07] Sarah: Depression reveals a life outside the will of God. Um, anger is dangerous and unloving towards other others, um, and fear. It's sinful because the Bible's filled with commands to not be anxious about anything and do not fear. So, I don't agree with any of those things, I should- I didn't make that clear before we started going through that, but um, but yeah, that, like sometimes the difficult emotions are talked about as if there's signs that something's wrong with our spiritual life.

[00:14:37] Don: Exactly.

[00:14:37] Tana: Yeah.

[00:14:39] Don: Yeah. And that's, and I think that that just plays into so many areas. Like we're not good at grieving the small things. Right. Um, Like spilling wine on your sofa that you just got. Right? Like, something like that. Like there's, there's grief in that process. Like, I am not getting this stain out.

[00:15:00] Tana: Right.

[00:15:00] Don: Uh, and we just bought this and, and to feel grief, and I realize that that seems superficial, but that's kind of the point, right? We're not even good at superficial grief.

[00:15:10] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:15:11] Don: Um, and feeling, give, feeling like we have permission to be upset or angry or disappointed in something that's superficial.

[00:15:20] And if we can't do it in that superficial setting, then we're definitely going to struggle to do it in important moments.

[00:15:27] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:15:30] Tana: Yeah. We're just right. We're not. . People don't like to deal with the difficult emotions.

[00:15:37] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:15:37] Tana: They don't like to see people sad. Um, and I think we've all learned then therefore to hide it from others.

[00:15:44] Also, I think sometimes we don't want to feel it and so we just kind of shove it down.

[00:15:50] Um, but there's something, this might sound really weird. But there's actually something beautiful [00:16:00] about grief, I think.

[00:16:01] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:16:01] Tana: Like there's a difference for me when I can feel that. I'm like, I'm shoving it down and I'm not really like, I don't wanna think about this.

[00:16:10] I don't wanna experience this pain versus when it finally comes out, um, where it feels, I mean, first of all, there's like the catharsis, right?

[00:16:19] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:16:19] Tana: of getting it out. But also it's like a reminder that there was something in your life that was so wonderful that it's worth grieving it when it's gone. Yeah.

[00:16:31] And there's something to be celebrated about that I think.

[00:16:34] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:16:34] Don: I might be a hu- a horrible human being, but

[00:16:38] Tana: I mean, yes, but...

[00:16:41] Don: Thank you. Um. But people better be upset when I die.

[00:16:46] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:16:47] Tana: Yeah.

[00:16:47] Don: Like, like if, if I die and I have the opportunity to, to watch the, uh, live stream of it, , um,

[00:16:58] Tana: you're gonna be up there like, MOURN ME!

[00:16:59] Don: That's right. Like, but I do! Like, and, and maybe that sounds silly to say, but to, to imagine that people would not be sad that I wasn't around anymore.

[00:17:12] Tana: Right.

[00:17:13] Don: Um, is- would be really disappointing.

[00:17:16] Tana: Yeah.

[00:17:17] Don: Like, I, I don't know if that sounds silly or not, but there, I've, I just, that's what I always, I often think of when I'm at a funeral

[00:17:23] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:17:23] Don: where people are like, this is a celebration of life.

[00:17:26] Tana: Yeah.

[00:17:26] Don: And it's like, it's like, man, I, I, you guys can celebrate me while I'm alive. Yeah. Yeah. I want you to be sad when I'm gone because that means that I, I left a, a hole somewhere that, that can't just easily be filled.

[00:17:45] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:17:45] Don: with something else.

[00:17:46] Tana: I think that's interesting cuz I'm, that made me think also that I really hate when people step on other people's grief.

[00:17:54] Sarah: Hmm.

[00:17:55] Tana: Um, like those Westboro Baptist Church [00:18:00] people who will go and pick at funerals of people they thought were sinful. Um, or when people rejoice in the death of someone that they didn't like. And I just, I've never been able to bring myself to do that. Like, I even, like, I don't know when people are just like, oh my gosh, we, we killed this terrorist.

[00:18:19] I'm like, okay. I mean, I, I hope that means we're safer, but I can't bring myself to celebrate the loss of life.

[00:18:29] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:18:29] Tana: And cuz somebody, somewhere is grieving that person. And also they were a human being.

[00:18:35] Sarah: Right.

[00:18:35] Tana: And so it just, it feels like, I don't know.

[00:18:38] Don: It's interesting.

[00:18:39] I used to feel very strongly about that.

[00:18:41] In fact, when Osama Bin Laden was was, was killed. And a lot of Christians were

[00:18:48] Tana: celebrating it,

[00:18:48] Don: celebrating it. I was like, my kind of reaction to it was, you can celebrate that justice was had; I don't know that I feel comfortable with celebrating that a human was, was killed. Um, I, it's interesting though, with all these mass shootings, which again, we've, we've had several. I mean, no matter when you're listening to this podcast, it's prob- that's gonna be probably be a true statement. Yeah. But in November of 2022, there's been a handful right in a row here, right around Thanksgiving. And, and I have to say that I, I don't feel that same fervor for, for defending the person that I used to, um, that now when the shooter that goes in and just starts shooting up places when they are shot and killed. Now I wouldn't say that I celebrate it and that I'm more happy when they're shot and killed than when they're just arrested. Hmm. But I am, I'm not as, I'm not as upset when [00:20:00] people celebrate it.

[00:20:01] Hmm. And I don't know if that's me becoming desensitized to those types of things or what, but, um, I'm sure it has to do with the overwhelming amount of grief

[00:20:11] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:20:12] Don: that I have, um, and as most people have felt of all of these, just waking up in the morning hoping not to see a headline of another mass shooting overnight.

[00:20:23] Tana: Right.

[00:20:24] Don: Um, so I don't know. It, it's, it has shifted for me in some way. It's just tiny, I think, because I'm not celebrating their death. Yeah. But, um, I don't feel as much. , I don't feel as much, uh, I don't even know what I feel to be honest. So with that I'll awkwardly pass it off to someone else.

[00:20:46] Sarah: Well, I think like back to like the celebration of life instead of mourning the death that like staying in the, like if everybody focuses on the happy emotions, it feels somewhat easier, but it's like extremely surface-y so everybody like puts their energy there instead of actually experiencing the depth of, yeah, the sad emotions. And it seems positive because it's happy, it's joyful, and the Bible says rejoice, but we're missing something. And yeah. I think too that like when we hide or push down our difficult emotions, we're missing opportunities to really connect to each other.

[00:21:31] Tana: I agree.

[00:21:33] Sarah: So like, um, just looking at my notes.

[00:21:36] When we bury a feeling or a hurt, it fester and then other hurts can build on it and attach to it until it begins to either leak out in little ways in how we communicate with each other, like we're still trying to hold it in or it explodes and we finally admit it, and then the issue is messier and harder to sort out because so much has become attached to it over [00:22:00] time.

[00:22:02] Tana: I, I think you were saying like, we miss opportunities to connect with each other, but I also think we really miss opportunities to connect with God.

[00:22:09] Sarah: Yes.

[00:22:10] Tana: Uh, and one of the, one of my pet peeves, I have a lot of pet peeves about worship music,

[00:22:16] Don: we have so many pets,

[00:22:19] Tana: but, um, one of my pet peeves about worship music is, it's always, always just praise and happiness.

[00:22:27] And, you know, there's a lot of laments in the Bible.

[00:22:31] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:22:31] Tana: Like a lot!

[00:22:33] Sarah: What is it? Two-thirds of the Psalms is laments.

[00:22:35] Tana: Yes.

[00:22:36] Sarah: Yes. And then the whole book of Lamentations

[00:22:38] Don: Or as I like to call it, David drunk Dialing God.

[00:22:41] Tana: Yes!

[00:22:42] Sarah: Yeah. David had laments.

[00:22:43] Tana: Yeah, there was,

[00:22:44] Sarah: Ezekiel had laments. Yeah.

[00:22:46] Don: There's an entire bookcalled Lamentations.

[00:22:48] Tana: She just said that.

[00:22:49] Don: I'm sorry. I was too busy thinking about my David joke.

[00:22:51] Sarah: You were getting ready .

[00:22:52] Don: I was. I was thinking about that, was preparing,

[00:22:55] Tana: but yeah, there's like-

[00:22:55] Sarah: Lamentations are everywhere.

[00:22:57] Yeah.

[00:22:57] Tana: Yeah. It's like lamenting is all over the Bible, but it's like we've decided collectively in the American church, at least like that's not allowed. We're not going to, and so, you know, then you're in the midst of grief and you go to a church service, and then you get to the worship part and it's like, how great is our God? And all these other things. And you're, you're just like in that moment, like, yeah, I'm not feeling it today.

[00:23:20] like, you know?

[00:23:21] Sarah: And we almost, I feel like there's almost this unspoken thing that like we think that God honors that, that we stuff our emotions and that, um, we, um, our, you praise him anyway, we're nice and respectable instead of exploding in anger or things like that.

[00:23:35] Tana: Yeah, yeah. That's always, that's always bothered me and I, I feel like, man, we need some good grieving songs.

[00:23:43] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:23:44] Don: Well, I think, you know, if we go back to like boomers, right? Uh, during the boomer generation, as they became adults, it became about buying suburban houses with privacy fences, [00:24:00] no longer on our front porch, all being on a deck in the backyard. Um, Basically you pull up to your house, you might go, you might be outside of your car and outside of your house to either water your lawn or get your mail.

[00:24:16] Um, but other than that, you pulled into your attached garage, got outta your attached garage, walked into your home, and spent your time then in your backyard and completely isolating ourselves from each other. And then with that isolation and this picturesque property, it became the boomer's version of Instagram, right?

[00:24:38] That, that every, everything was perfect. Look at how manicured my lawn is. Look at how nice my home is.

[00:24:44] Tana: Yeah.

[00:24:45] Don: Look at my, my privacy fence. And it, it gave this very specific impression, and you would drive through the neighborhood or the cul-de-sac, and you would have an impression of the type of people that lived here with their perfect decorations, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:25:03] And that's just carried on.

[00:25:05] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:25:05] Don: Right. And now, now we do it through things such as Instagram or TikTok or any of these things. And I wanna be very clear here. I'm not poo-pooing this idea of celebrating the things going on in your life, but the, uh, the manicured moments that we have, I believe are one of the greatest things working against us for actually expressing grief because how can I express grief? The facade will fall apart if I'm angry or if I'm, uh, sad or if I'm grieving. The, the whole facade of this manicured life, this perfect, joyful, peaceful, wonderful life will fall apart. And I just think that's one of the biggest things holding us [00:26:00] back from being able emote in a healthy way. And so then it comes out in other ways such as Karens, uh, or it comes out in other ways such as temper tantrums, right.? Or, um, mediocre men, uh, behaving poorly. That's been around for a long time, but, you know, yeah. You get my point that this is, yeah. Anyhow, thoughts on that?

[00:26:24] Sarah: Yeah. Well, um, it just reminds me of like, when we ask somebody, how are you doing? It's almost, the first answer is gonna be, it's just like, ignore the first answer. Whatever it is. Yeah, fine. If they say fine, or if you're at checking in on somebody who has had a loss and they know that's what you're talking about, then sometimes it's like, well, God's gonna work all things to good.

[00:26:46] I just can't see it yet, or things like that. It's like this answer that they feel like somebody taught them, they're supposed to say to show that they're still faithful and you know, to whatever. And it's like, I feel it's almost like you have to ask the question multiple times in numerous ways to let people know that you actually care how they're doing.

[00:27:08] Don: Yeah.

[00:27:09] Sarah: And it's, I just feel like it's almost like a, um, it's like you have to trick them into like, actually, like, you have to like break the shell.

[00:27:19] Yeah. I mean, maybe not tricking them, but like, it's, yeah. When I've tried to be there for people who are grieving, I, I've found that sometimes I had to ask the question multiple times in multiple ways and leave big spaces for silence in the conversation before somebody felt like, um, they, it was actually a safe place to talk about what they're feeling.

[00:27:41] And I'm guilty of it too. If somebody asks me how I am, most of the time I just say, I'm fine because I'm thinking of the current moment. And if you're like seeing me or talking to me, I'm fine because if I'm not fine, I'm not talking to you. Hmm. And I don't go-

[00:27:53] Tana: start, sorry, go ahead.

[00:27:54] Sarah: And you don't, and I don't really like think about the big picture.

[00:27:58] I'm just like, right. Yeah. Very. [00:28:00] Maybe I'm very literal, like, oh, you're asking me how I am in this moment. ,

[00:28:03] Tana: but I, I always think like they just don't wanna actually know. Yeah. Yeah. And like, nobody want, nobody actually wants, wants me to answer that honestly.

[00:28:10] Don: It's like saying hi.

[00:28:11] Sarah: It's a societal thing.

[00:28:11] Don: Yeah, yeah.

[00:28:12] It's just saying hi.

[00:28:12] Sarah: Yeah,

[00:28:13] Tana: yeah, yeah. I like Don's answer. Somebody's like, you know, how are you doing? He's like, Any better, I'd be twins! And he'll even say that if he's having like a crappy day, you know?

[00:28:23] Don: Yeah. So it's probably not a good answer then.

[00:28:26] Sarah: Yeah. I went through a period of my life where I thought it was a great idea just to always answer that, "Excellent!" Because I thought I would be like bringing happiness to other people. Like I just,

[00:28:33] Don: and also you just got done watching Bill and Ted's.

[00:28:35] Sarah: Oh, I don't know.

[00:28:36] Don: Excellent Adventure?

[00:28:36] Sarah: No, I don't think I ever saw the movie actually. But-

[00:28:39] Don: no one has.

[00:28:40] Sarah: I just like tried to,

[00:28:41] Tana: I have! Multiple times .

[00:28:43] Sarah: I just thought that changing the answer like that, it would just maybe be a better testament to God

[00:28:49] Tana: Sure.

[00:28:49] Sarah: That if I just was like happy all the time and, and I don't know, I've always like carried this, um, about feeling of like not wanting to be a burden to other people.

[00:28:59] Don: Yeah.

[00:29:00] Sarah: So it's really hard for me to share when I'm going through hard things because I think partly because of living my life in various times, I've lived my life around people who have depression and like just thinking that like, well, I don't want them to know how sad I am because I don't want them to be sad.

[00:29:19] And I think the other piece of it is I'm sensitive person.

[00:29:22] Don: Yeah.

[00:29:23] Sarah: And um, I think sometimes it might come off more that I'm just like cold or distant, but it's just like I'm so sensitive that I'm just trying to like, protect myself from like all the feelings. And because I'm so sensitive, I assume that everybody else is so sensitive that they don't want to hear about the things that I'm sad about because it's gonna make them sad or take them to a bad place, so I just have to like soldier on and keep it in.

[00:29:53] Tana: Go ahead.

[00:29:54] Don: I was actually, I, I forget what I was gonna say now.

[00:29:57] Tana: Okay, I'll go ahead. Um, [00:30:00] yeah, I think that we haven't, we, uh, as a society, probably in general, but I feel this really in the Christian Church. Um, we've been taught to like hide our grief and, you know, all this stuff.

[00:30:14] But I also think we have not been taught well how to deal with other people's grief.

[00:30:18] Sarah: Right.

[00:30:19] Tana: And, um, and so this kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier about, you know, the platitudes of like, oh, they're in a better place, or whatever. Whereas I wonder if- and nobody wants to hear that. Like, you know, you're like, well, if I share my grief, they're just gonna give me these platitudes-

[00:30:38] um, but I kind of wonder if we were just better at, you know, just being like, oh, you're grieving, you're sad. I, I'll just sit with you.

[00:30:49] Sarah: Right.

[00:30:49] Tana: You know, I'll just, I don't have to say things to try to make it better or whatever. Let's, let's just, let's just sit. Yeah. You. You grieve. I'll be right here.

[00:31:00] Don: I, one of the other things I think that's really important when it comes to other people's emotions.

[00:31:06] I think we've all been taught either, uh, directly, or it's been inferred or implied to us, is that in some way you're responsible for other people's emotions and that's just not true.

[00:31:21] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:31:23] Don: you're responsible to the people around you, but you are probably only responsible for a child under 18 in your household that you have, you know, any kind of authority over.

[00:31:34] That's it. Outside- you're, you're responsible for yourself and for a minor that you have, uh, custody of, right? Outside of that, you're not responsible for anyone. You're responsible to them to be a good citizen, to be a good spouse, to be a good friend. But I think what happens is we have in our culture for some reason, [00:32:00] established this idea that I'm responsible for other people's wellbeing and emotions, and if we could realize that that's not the case, that the case really is about this idea that I'm responsible to come and sit, and, and be there with you in your grief. I'm not responsible for your grief. I'm not responsible for alleviating your grief. I'm not responsible for fixing you. I'm responsible to you as being a friend, doing what I know I can do to be there and care for you. And I think that that's such an important piece for us.

[00:32:39] And when we function almost exclusively in "responsible for," that's just too heavy of a weight to carry for very long.

[00:32:48] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:32:49] Don: And I watch it, and I particularly see it in women. I see women feel responsible for their spouse, um, for their adult children, uh, for coworkers. I, I think women have absolutely been socialized into that place, more than men have. And I ju- I can see it often in a lot of my female friends that they're carrying so many other people's weight. You're only meant to carry your own.

[00:33:17] Tana: Right?

[00:33:19] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:33:19] Tana: Yeah. It reminds me of, um, there was this TikTok video, a therapist did, and I had shared it with Don. Where she, she remembered, uh, from earlier in her life where she, with a boyfriend or whatever, they were watching TV and an orange juice commercial came on and he was like, "oh man, I wish we had some orange juice."

[00:33:42] And she said, immediately she felt guilty and terrible that she hadn't anticipated this need of his. And like, you know, "oh, or maybe I should go to the grocery store and get him orange juice. I can't believe I didn't think about this. Why don't we have orange juice?" And, and then she shared that with [00:34:00] him later and he was like, "I, I wasn't expecting that.

[00:34:04] Like I just, I just thought it'd be great if I had some orange juice and I just spoke that out loud. It's not like, you know..." and I, I shared the video with Don cuz I was, "I do this." I was like, "I don't feel like you've ever expected me to do it. Like, I don't feel like that came from you, but I feel like I was trained" that like, anytime he's like, man, we don't have any food in the house, or,

[00:34:27] Don: What she really means is, "man, we don't have any beer."

[00:34:30] Tana: Or that. I was gonna say that too. Yeah. Like, uh, I wish I had beer. You know, I like, I'm immediately like, oh, why didn? Think to pick up more beer at the store or whatever. Yeah.

[00:34:40] Uh, and so it's interesting if like that small of a thing is something that women feel socialized and everything to feel responsible for, then how much larger, like other things become a huge burden.

[00:34:56] Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. Like all the shame around it when really it can be a beautiful thing. And I think it's, um, the Gottman's who are like, love marriage, relationship experts who talk about bids. And so those things can be bids, like bids for attention, basically.

[00:35:12] Tana: Oh, okay.

[00:35:12] Sarah: Um, and it's the idea of like paying attention to your significant other that when they say little things and responding to them, um, and it can be as simple too, is like when they say like, "oh, look at this."

[00:35:24] Like pausing to like, look at what they're looking at because it's a little bid. And that successful relationships are relationships that respond to those little bid. , but as women, we can sometimes take that as a pressure.

[00:35:36] Tana: Yes.

[00:35:36] Sarah: As opposed to the more beautiful idea of seeing an opportunity of saying like, oh, he wants orange.

[00:35:43] This is awesome. Like, "I'm gonna run in the store and like grab orange juice and sneak back and stick it in the fridge and surprise them." You know, like, like that's like a beautiful, like, to see it like as an opportunity that like, oh, you revealed a little bit of something to me, a little bit of treasure of something and I'll bring you joy.

[00:35:58] I'm gonna go make it [00:36:00] happen in a positive way, as opposed to like all the shame of like, why didn't I like have four flavors of orange juice in the fridge already.

[00:36:07] Tana: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don just did that for me the other day cuz we, uh, have always, always had this like cold broccoli recipe thing, um, in my family for Thanksgiving.

[00:36:18] Like broccoli, cranberry sauce and turkey

[00:36:21] Sarah: Recipe in the show notes.

[00:36:24] Tana: And, and I was preparing on Wednesday night, um, because you steam it and then you refrigerate it. So I was like, well, I'm gonna do step one the night before, you know? Yeah. And I went, oh my gosh, I forgot the broccoli. And I just, um, Don was upstairs and I, I texted him and I was like, I can't believe I forgot the broccoli and a little sad face and like, just like, 30 seconds after that.

[00:36:47] I hear him like moving around really fast upstairs and like I hear his belt going on and I'm like, what is he doing?

[00:36:53] Don: I have a very loud belt.

[00:36:54] Tana: You do have a really loud belt. And, and I'm like, what is he doing? And then he comes like rushing down the stairs and I'm like, what are you doing? He's like, "I'm going to the grocery store to get broccoli, but it closes soon so I need to leave now."

[00:37:05] And I'm like, I didn't say that. So you would do that? I didn't need you to - and he's like, "but I know you love it and you need it, so I'm just gonna go do it." And so like, yeah, that little like bid for attention thing, like I, I do love that he responded, but I would, I would hope that it wasn't like a

[00:37:21] Sarah: Obligation.

[00:37:22] Tana: Yeah.

[00:37:22] Sarah: What was it like from your, did you feel like she was secretly asking you and you were reading between the lines or?

[00:37:30] Don: I knew that she was not going to throw her body in the way of the car pulling out of the driveway.

[00:37:39] Sarah: Um, well, and you got in the car and drove, like, that's impressive to me.

[00:37:41] Tana: Yeah, really.

[00:37:42] Don: Yeah. Yeah. I do not like the drive .

[00:37:44] Tana: No.

[00:37:44] Don: Um, no, I didn't, I didn't feel like it was pressure. I, it definitely felt like a lament and, you know, look, Tana sometimes makes me sound good on this podcast, but I. I fail so often in caring for so many things [00:38:00] around the house that when there are moments like that, that I'm able, or I feel like I have the energy or whatever to just jump up and do them to demonstrate care, then, then that's, that's important to me.

[00:38:15] But no, I didn't, I didn't feel pressure, uh, to do it and I think, I think in some way I would've felt sad if I hadn't.

[00:38:24] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:38:24] Tana: Because I know that we always have broccoli on Thanksgiving, even though I like eat one, one piece of it because it's not my thing, right? Um, but, but it's something that is something that we always have, and, and I knew it would, it was important.

[00:38:41] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:38:42] Don: And again, I think that goes to, I didn't feel responsible for her, to get the broccoli. I was, I felt responsible to her that I love her and I wanted her to have, you know, a comfort food that she loves at Thanksgiving.

[00:38:55] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:38:56] Tana: Well, and going back to what you said about like little moments of grief, of like, oh, I spilled the wine on the couch, right?

[00:39:02] Yeah. Like that was a little moment of grief for. Oh, I don't have the broccoli.

[00:39:07] Like, ohhhhh

[00:39:08] Don: So I should have let you stay in your greed. Wait, I'm so confused now. What are we supposed to do here?

[00:39:14] Tana: No, but I mean, like in that case, that was a good response. Yes. Like that was something you could fix.

[00:39:21] Don: Certainly. Yes.

[00:39:21] Tana: You know, you can't fix if I've, you know, like my uncle died earlier this year. Like you can't fix that. Yeah. You know? And you didn't try to, right. So, yeah. Um, so that, yeah, that's a little interesting. .

[00:39:34] Sarah: Yeah. And I think the only other problem would come is if you sent that text and you were secretly asking if you would've been upset that he didn't do it.

[00:39:42] Tana: Right. Yeah.

[00:39:42] Sarah: Because that's something we have to be careful about is like being clear in our communication.

[00:39:46] Tana: Yeah.

[00:39:46] Sarah: That if we're really hoping that somebody would be willing to go to the store for us, that we'd ask for that.

[00:39:51] Don: Yeah.

[00:39:51] Sarah: And not hint at it by saying, you know.

[00:39:53] Tana: Right.

[00:39:54] Sarah: And I don't think you were.

[00:39:55] Tana: No.

[00:39:55] Sarah: But if you were just hinting and secretly hoping, then that's like a problem [00:40:00] with like expectations not being clear and not being stated and agreed upon.

[00:40:03] Tana: Right.

[00:40:04] Sarah: certain things for an expectation to be valid. And so it wasn't valid for you to expect him to go.

[00:40:09] Tana: Right, right.

[00:40:09] Sarah: Because that's not literally what you're saying. Or, and to your credit, you weren't trying to, but yeah.

[00:40:15] Tana: Well, yeah. So, um, speaking of the holidays, I believe there was something, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you, you wanted to talk about Blue christmas?

[00:40:26] Sarah: Well, it's funny cuz I thought when we were talking about this topic, that it reminded me of blue Christmas, but I've never experienced blue Christmas. I just know it's out there and I looked into it a little bit. Have either of you experienced a blue Christmas service?

[00:40:39] Tana: I feel like, I don't, there's part of me that feels like I went to one at one point, and then part of me that's like, no, I didn't.

[00:40:46] I, so I'm not sure

[00:40:47] Don: I avoid them. Yeah, I, I struggle with depression around the holidays and I get that. For other people, that's very comforting for me, it's, it's not comforting as an introvert and depressed. Yeah. I don't want to go into a group of large people who want to talk to me. Uh, that I don't know.

[00:41:08] Yeah. So for me, and that in no way is a critique of it. I'm just saying as an introvert who struggles with depression and anxiety around the holidays, I've, I've been around them, uh, in the churches that I've, I've served, right. Um, but I've not participated in one.

[00:41:26] Tana: Sarah, before you go on, could you explain

[00:41:28] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:41:28] Tana: Just in case people don't know what a blue christmas service is.

[00:41:30] Sarah: Well, I remember first hearing about blue Christmas. Um, our church in Queens was doing it, um, as a service. Um, and I think it was because they were partly trying to acknowledge these difficult emotions around the holidays. And so it was a place to come that wasn't going to be the happy worship music.

[00:41:47] Um, like I said, I've never experienced one. I looked a little bit online and there's even some like, um, Orders of service that people have published online that include like prayers and scriptures and specific [00:42:00] carols or, um, hymns of just trying to create space for the grief. So in that way, I think it can be a healthy thing.

[00:42:07] I've had a similar response to you where like I had an opportunity to go, but like, I think the introvert part of me was just like scared of the unknown and like, again, like I think I mentioned on previous podcasts that sometimes I feel like if I ever start crying, I'm never gonna stop. So I didn't really like or not feeling like safe or, um, even though it was a totally safe church, it was all my own baggage.

[00:42:29] But, um, yeah, so I don't have anything positive or negative to say about them, except I do think that, I think it's a credit to the church to be expanding to think about, um, the multiple, um, ways that people experience the holidays, like I'm glad to know that it's happening and I hope that it's helpful for some people, but of course not everything is gonna be helpful for everybody, right?

[00:42:56] Tana: Yeah,

[00:42:56] Don: yeah. You know, for me, one of the sad things that exist in the church is the lack of space for pastors to feel sad.

[00:43:12] Tana: Yeah.

[00:43:12] Don: at Christmas or at Easter,

[00:43:15] Sarah: yeah

[00:43:15] Don: right around holidays, right? So I have lots of baggage and stuff around holidays and knowing when I'm walking into a more, uh, churchy type setting where people are gonna be like, Oh, joy, you know, uh, Jesus is here and I'm just like mm-hmm.

[00:43:36] And I feel like I can't be sad as the pastor of a community that in some way I need to be bigger

[00:43:44] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:43:44] Don: than other people who are suffering through that. Uh, and it, it's just really complicated and I think churches would do well to check in on their pastor. And make sure their pastor is not having to just go through the motions, uh, in [00:44:00] order to

[00:44:00] Sarah: yeah.

[00:44:00] Don: keep a joy-filled holiday. Feeling a certain way for folks.

[00:44:05] Sarah: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:44:07] Tana: Yeah. I've often thought about that pressure for anybody who is any, in any sort of performative role around the holidays. I don't know why this made me think of it, but I, I saw, like somebody had taken a little video of, at, at Disney World.

[00:44:23] And they were, you know, the, a bunch of characters were up there and dancing and smiling and I thought, oh my gosh, that must be exhausting to keep that up if you're feeling like, if you're feeling sad, you know? Um, so yeah.

[00:44:36] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:44:38] Tana: Uh, any other thoughts on grief? Sarah? It seems like you have a lot of notes there.

[00:44:43] Sarah: Yeah, I do. I wanted to share, um, some of the common defenses that we use when we're dealing with pain: denial or selective forgetting. We refuse to acknowledge some painful aspect of reality externally or internally. For example, "I feel just fine. It didn't bother me a bit that my boss belittled me and that I got fired. I'm not worried in the least."

[00:45:06] Tana: Hmm.

[00:45:07] Sarah: Or minimizing. We admit that something is wrong, but in such a way that appears less serious than it actually is. "My son is doing okay with God. He's just drinking once in a while," when in reality he's drinking heavily and rarely sleeping at home.

[00:45:18] Tana: Mmm.

[00:45:19] Sarah: Blaming others. We deny responsibility for our behavior and project it out there upon another: "the reason my brother is sick in the hospital is because the doctor's messed up his medications."

[00:45:30] Blaming yourself. We inwardly take on the fault. "It's my fault mom doesn't take care of me and drinks all the time. It's because I'm not worth it."

[00:45:37] Rationalizing, we offer excuses, justifications, alibis, to provide an inaccurate explanation of what is going on.

[00:45:45] "Did you know that John has a genetic disposition towards rage that runs in family? That's why the meetings aren't helping him."

[00:45:52] Intellectualizing. We give analysis theories and generalities to avoid personal awareness and difficult feelings. "My situation is [00:46:00] not that bad compared to how others are suffering in the world.

[00:46:02] What do I have to cry about?" That goes back to the mountain and the mole hil we talked about, I think in the emotions.

[00:46:08] Don: Yeah.

[00:46:08] Sarah: Or making mountain out of a molehill.

[00:46:11] Distracting. We change the subject or engage in humor to avoid threatening. "Why are you so focused on the negative? Look at the great time we had as a family last Christmas."

[00:46:20] Or becoming hostile.

[00:46:21] We get angry or irritable when reference is made to certain subjects. "Don't talk about Joe. He's dead. It's not gonna bring him back."

[00:46:29] Tana: Hmm.

[00:46:30] Sarah: So those are some of the defense mechanisms that we possibly go to to deal. With pain, um, and these difficult emotions. Did you guys have anything you wanna speak to that before I go on?

[00:46:44] Don: No, go ahead.

[00:46:44] Sarah: Okay. And so what do we do with this? And two of the recommendations- again, relying heavily on emotionally healthy spirituality because that was what I was mentored in. And um, but two of the things that Pastor Pete talks about is paying attention to the emotions and, uh, also. Waiting in the confusion, confusing in between. So when it comes to the paying attention to the emotions, we talked about this briefly at the beginning, that if we don't pay attention to our emotions, that they can leak out in little ways.

[00:47:15] Tana: Yeah.

[00:47:15] Sarah: So emotions are really a discipleship issue. Grievings not possible without paying attention to our anger and sadness.

[00:47:24] Um, but we can leak when we have these difficult emotions and passive aggressive behavior like showing up late or avoiding something, or sarcastic remarks or a nasty tone of voice or giving the silent treatment. And so what I would say to that is that if you have a loved one in your life and you notice that their behavior has shifted in some way, it could be a clue.

[00:47:43] And I, I like to think of emotions as clues because, , I think, um, they can be cl -clues about like something's going on, maybe a boundary has been violated. We can learn about ourselves, we can learn about God by what our emotions are telling us. So in [00:48:00] that way, I think I like to use the phrase that they're clues.

[00:48:03] Um, so if you see someone leaking, like in your life, for example, saying something in a different tone, Or behaving differently, and it just strikes you as different. It could be a clue that they're hurting or that there's more underneath. And this actually happened to me recently, and I missed the chance to help.

[00:48:22] I found that I was put off by the tone that somebody had said something and my response was just to feel defensive, and I still did what the person asked, but I never reached out to my friend to be like, what was going on with that tone? And I probably will miss it the next time too, honestly, because this is hard stuff.

[00:48:41] It's not easy to say, Hey, I was wondering why you worded the request that way. It seemed like you were upset or worried that no one would help. Maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but I wanted to check in and see how you're doing. And even as I typed that out in preparation, I'm like, why do those things always seem so reasonable when I just like say it or type it out, but so hard to do in practice?

[00:49:00] Like I'm just scared that like if I were to actually say that to somebody, that it would be offensive or, things like that. But um, yeah, so the whole idea of paying attention to what the emotions are and paying attention to other people around us, that, um, again, kind of going back to that little bid, like that was like a bid for attention

[00:49:21] Tana: yeah.

[00:49:21] Sarah: that I totally overlooked because I distinctly remember this striking me as like, oh, this is not how the, this person usually words this and I missed it.

[00:49:32] Tana: Yeah.

[00:49:32] Don: Yeah.

[00:49:33] Sarah: Until I thought about it later. Um, and sure enough there was a ton of hurt underneath it, and if I had caught that, then maybe I could have checked in and, you know, it would've been helpful instead of just being like, oh, well why did they say that?

[00:49:46] I'm like, I'm just defensive in thinking about myself. Yeah. Yeah. So any thoughts on that?

[00:49:53] Don: I think it's really important for us to just, with the, the [00:50:00] pace of life. And I think pace of life has a lot to do with not having time to grieve, right? Yeah. That it's just onto the next thing and we just have that pressure in this world.

[00:50:11] I think that if we can find a way to slow down.

[00:50:16] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:50:17] Don: Um, that there's, there's pauses, these pauses that allow us the opportunity to reflect, like you said, like had, now that you think back, why don't you, you notice it. And I think that we're just not good at pausing in normal life.

[00:50:33] Tana: Yeah.

[00:50:34] Don: It, it's funny because, you know, earlier we were talking about when someone says, "Hey, how you doing?"

[00:50:38] I will often pause when people ask me that. . . And then when I say Good, they're like, are you sure? And I'm like, I am, because I just paused and thought, okay, how am I doing right now? But I also find that when I pause sometimes I'll be like, actually, I'm not doing great right now. And they also don't know how to deal with that either.

[00:51:02] Right? Because they, they're, they're perceiving this to be a, you know, just a kind thing to say to someone as you see them.

[00:51:09] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:51:10] Don: But that pausing is so powerful in so much of our life that if we could practice, I mean, that's why I think Sabbath is so significant.

[00:51:18] Sarah: Right.

[00:51:18] Don: Is it, so a pause in the week. And I think if we can find more places to pause that we're gonna be healthier when it comes to grieving.

[00:51:28] We're gonna be healthier when it comes to any emotion, and we're gonna be healthier for those around us who are experiencing emotions that, um, are, are hurting them right now.

[00:51:37] Sarah: Yeah. It reminds me of a quote and I forget who said it. It might be Henri Nouwen. Nouwen. I don't remember how to say

[00:51:45] Don: Henri Nouwen..

[00:51:46] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was Ahn-ree. Is is it French?

[00:51:49] Don: He, I mean,

[00:51:50] Sarah: well, we don't know how to pronounce it. Should we spell it ?

[00:51:52] Don: I just, I just always called him Henry.

[00:51:54] Sarah: H e n r i. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I could be wrong. This might not, we might be pronouncing the wrong name of the wrong person, but some sort of [00:52:00] quote and, um, again, with the, like me just remembering the bare minimum of things, but the idea being that like there's some percentage, like life should be lived this percent and reflected on this.

[00:52:10] Insert small percent for living and big percent for reflecting. Yeah. So maybe it was life should be 30% lived and 70% reflected on, but I don't remember the numbers.

[00:52:19] Don: Yeah.

[00:52:20] Sarah: But you know, it's goes to that idea of creating space and I think, um, silence in your life to stop and think and reflect is really powerful.

[00:52:31] Tana: Yeah.

[00:52:32] Sarah: Yeah. To catch those moments, but.

[00:52:35] So the other piece was the waiting, and this kind of goes with what you're saying, the waiting and the confusing in between. And this idea of waiting resists quick solutions and, but it can also feel like it runs counter to our western culture because we don't like to think about our limits.

[00:52:50] And in this idea we're avoiding the pat answers that we kind of touched on before the platitudes, the simple things embracing living without an answer. Embracing the mystery of these situations, um, turning towards loved ones to God in prayer and to others in community and to keep returning to God in our grief.

[00:53:14] And I think the other big piece is, um, to realize that we grieve differently. So this is especially important like, again, with significant others or really close, um, relationships, especially if you've experienced a loss together. So my husband and I, our first daughter was still born at 19 weeks, three days.

[00:53:35] So we had to go through this grieving process. And, um, one of the most helpful things that somebody had explained to us, and I know you're not gonna be able to see my hands if you're not watching the video, is that, the grieving process is like, there's gonna be times where you come closer together and times that you're feeling the same, but then it's like a wavy line.

[00:53:58] Like there's also [00:54:00] times where you're gonna feel differently. There might be times where you're feeling incredibly sad about what happened, and then other moments where, um, you're feeling lighter and your partner can be feeling the opposite.

[00:54:13] Don: Hmm.

[00:54:13] Sarah: And especially when you're sharing a space and working through that.

[00:54:17] it can be hard to do. I distinctly remember being in our apartment in, um, Sunnyside, Queens, and I remember my husband's family coming to visit and they didn't visit us a whole time because they lived in New Jersey. And, um, it was hard to get over there. And I just remember my husband answering the door and being like, happy to see them.

[00:54:37] And then I was like super annoyed. I'm like, how can you be happy? But I know he was also just happy that his like family was there. And um, then it was like a whole thing of bringing all the food, like they brought so much food, but nobody talked about what happened. And it was like killing me inside.

[00:54:58] Um, and so in retrospect, like I'm still glad that they came and, but it's also good to like acknowledge what happened. Like I would've felt better if we, they had acknowledged like, what had happened. Um, and to that point, having gone through grieving process and other grieving processes, you know, I think that there's like, we can be really scared about saying the wrong thing.

[00:55:26] Tana: Yeah.

[00:55:27] Sarah: And that there are, you know, people will say like, we'll never say this to a grieving person. Never say this. But then like, don't let that paralyze you though, because, and maybe this is only my experience, but like saying, doing something and saying something, even if it's not exactly right, because from one minute to the next, it might not be exactly right to the person that's grieving, but doing or saying something is better than saying nothing.

[00:55:58] And I find myself sometimes [00:56:00] paralyzed myself because, oh, I don't wanna say the wrong thing. I don't wanna do the wrong thing, and then I choose to do nothing. And I think that that's a misstep that like we should take that risk of, um, I mean, we should try to be mindful of these ideas of people sharing and learning.

[00:56:12] Like, oh, here, this is not a helpful thing to say when somebody's grieving. But don't let it paralyze us to like be so afraid. We're not gonna say the perfect thing that we just don't say anything at all. And the last piece I would say, um, kind of goes to the, um, the bids, whatever. But also, um, if you're grieving with somebody that you're in a close relationship, like a significant other is to, there's this idea of turning towards each other.

[00:56:42] It's actually like just in couples therapy in general, that like, um, an like answering those bids and those moments to connect. And I distinctly remember a moment where I was like at that apartment and laying in my bed and crying and sad and like it was like the middle of the afternoon and Glenn came in and was laying down next to me and I just like had my back to him.

[00:57:06] And then I remembered that we had learned this in couples therapy. This idea of turning towards each other. And it was like the last thing that I wanted to do. But then I just forced myself to physically like throw my body over and turn towards him. And so just to point out that it can be incredibly hard to do, especially like, I don't know, I feel like I spend a lot of my life turning away, turning away from people to get myself together, turning my away to like prepare to get things done.

[00:57:31] And I'll turn back to you when I'm ready or like when I feel like I can like help you. Um, That kinda just goes back to me feeling, always feeling like I'm a burden to other people. So it's just like, let me turn away and get myself together and then come to you and not be a burden. But I think that by doing that you, I miss opportunity for connection and people close to me feel like they can't care for me because they don't know what's really going on because I turn away.

[00:57:59] So [00:58:00] all these ideas I truly believe in, but I hope you've seen this overwhelming, um, message that it's hard. Yeah. And I'm not getting it all right. But it's, it's also a journey. Like I just wanna keep growing and keep acknowledging and keep being curious about my own life and my own reactions to things so that I can continue to grow and do those hard things so that I can heal and I can connect better with people.

[00:58:27] Um, Yeah.

[00:58:29] Tana: Yeah.

[00:58:30] Don: Thank you.

[00:58:31] Tana: Thank you, Sarah. Well, um, we are out of time. Uh. Those were some really great things. Thoughts to end on, um, unless you have any final

[00:58:43] Sarah: Nope.

[00:58:43] Tana: Don, any final?

[00:58:45] Don: No. I don't know how to go beyond that.

[00:58:47] Tana: I, I think I just, I just wanna add one simple thing, which is, you know, we are in the holiday season and to be sensitive to people who are grieving and not force them into celebratory

[00:59:01] Sarah: yeah

[00:59:02] Tana: things if they're not up to,

[00:59:04] Don: not everyone who's grieving is a Grinch.

[00:59:07] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:59:08] Yeah. So thank you for joining us, uh, in between episodes you can find us @ ajfffpodcast.com. And, um, yeah, we'll see you next time.

[00:59:21] Don: Thanks.

[00:59:22] Sarah: Bye.

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