Podcast Episode 101 Transcript: Can Evangelicalism Be Redeemed?

Listen to the episode here. Or watch on YouTube.

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[00:00:00] Tana: Hello, and welcome to the very first episode of Ancient Jesus/Future Faith, a podcast focused on building the future of our faith by digging deep into the words, context and time of Jesus. Each week we strive to answer the question: what does the Bible actually say? And what does that mean for our lives today?

[00:00:21] I'm your host. Tana Schiewer, and I'm joined by my co-host/panelist/expert/theologians/ amazing people. Don Schiewer [hello] and Sarah Mainardi. [Hi.] So we're gonna do a little bit of, introductory stuff in this episode I talk about why we're doing this podcast a little bit about ourselves and,to kick us off with that - Don!

[00:00:49] This is a podcast that you were very interested in doing and, it's sort of an outgrowth of your previous podcast of Evangebros. [Mm-hmm] So, I think it'd be great if you could start us off by telling us why you were interested in doing this.

[00:01:05] Don: Sure. So first of all Evangebros kind of comes out of this mindset of redeeming evangelicalism.

[00:01:14] Even the name Evangebro is, is, was meant to be humorous because we've all experienced someone that maybe fits that persona. And I'll let you define that however you want. So, but what, what I feel like we've..what.. it has evolved into or what's necessary now, is that a lot of people, I don't even know that they're looking to any longer redeem their connectedness or even redeem the name evangelical.

[00:01:44] There's lots of books out now, conversations happening about post evangelicalism. In a lot of ways, I would say that I, as, as a pastor and as a person of faith have really been post evangelical for quite some time. It's [00:02:00] just that I had so much of my roots in evangelicalism that I, it was maybe either hard to acknowledge or recognize that it, the time had passed.

[00:02:10] So in reflection and having conversations with the two of you and several other people, you know, it just became clear to me that we need something more. And one of the things I'm hoping that with this podcast we'll be able to do is demonstrate that some of the things that make us disconnected from evangelicalism will create a deeper connectedness of faith.

[00:02:34] Some of the things that evangelicalism has insisted that if you disagree with them on means that you don't take serious, something such as the Bible. You know, if you have a disagreement around scripture in any way, a lot of times then the response back is, "well, you just don't care about the text" type thing.

[00:02:56] What I'm hoping to do is that with, with you guys and with some of the things we're hoping to build out beyond just a podcast for this is to really establish a space in which people can come and find the beauty of their faith in a world that no longer values evangelicalism post 2016 election post January 6th, post a lot of things that unfortunately made evangelicalism a political party, as opposed to a expression of faith.

[00:03:29] And there's many other things beyond just those two things. But ultimately I think that's where it really came to a head.

[00:03:37] Tana: That's that's very interesting in that...

[00:03:41] Don: Thank God. Otherwise the first podcast...

[00:03:45] Tana: That was a really boring answer, Don. Let's hope Sarah can do better. Well, we all know we've been banking on that from the beginning.

[00:03:51] That really that really resonates with me. Sarah, does that, does what Don said, does that resonate with you or do you have other [00:04:00] reasons that that made you interested in coming along to build ancient Jesus, future faith.

[00:04:06] Sarah: I would say yes. It does resonate with me. My faith has grown and changed over the years, and I think that that is an amazing and beautiful thing to grow and walk out a faith journey and with the title, ancient Jesus future faith.

[00:04:27] It really makes me think about the scripture. And how we approach scripture. So the ancient Jesus aspect reminds me of the value of approaching scripture in its historical context. Hence the ancient Jesus. Like what was it like in the time that Jesus walked on the earth? What was the culture like? What were the norms that we may not, are not normal for us?

[00:04:54] Sure. Not normal for me. I used to read the text. I used to come to the text as with all of my lenses, from my experiences, from my personality, from what people had told me, clouding, what's actually written in scripture. And often we do use the word text in our little circle. And I love that because I think using the word text instead of using the word scripture has a little bit of a nuance.

[00:05:23] It reminds me that we're studying the words that are written, the text we're studying. What's written in the text first, not what we've been taught, not reading the commentary first, not even the oral traditions or the Midrash. It's looking at the text first and doing our best to honor the text by placing it into its historical cultural context.

[00:05:45] Considering what the author was trying to tell. When they were writing this. And so that's the part of ancient Jesus that the title that I get really excited about, I've always been excited about the text. I have a very fond memory of being a [00:06:00] child growing up in the Catholic church. I was really interested in faith, going to mass every Sunday, singing all the responses, singing really loud.

[00:06:08] And, but we weren't really encouraged to read the Bible on our own, but we did have a Bible in the house. And I remember. I don't know how old I was probably seven, eight or nine reaching up to the top shelf and getting that tiny little Bible with a tiny print and just starting to read it. And I love that image because as a mom, I often, and my husband does this even better than I do, but I have two girls and we really try to pay attention to where their interests.

[00:06:34] Come out in their day to day living. Cause I think as a child, you can get some of that truest expression of the self that God made you to be before. A lot of things get, start clouding that up. So I like remembering back to when I was a child and reaching for that Bible and starting to read it with a tiny print and I'm sure I didn't get very far because Genesis gets a little intimidating, especially if you're...

[00:06:55] Don: ugly.

[00:06:55] Sarah: You're that age.

[00:06:57] Don: Gets ugly pretty quick.

[00:06:59] Sarah: But yeah, so just always having a value in faith and interest in faith. I was also the Catholic girl who came home from church and played mass. Even though I knew that you had to be male to be a priest. But I would be says them , but my shirt Jesus empowered women, but I would play, I would take my little first communion book and redo the whole mass with my pretend audience or my dolls or things like that and sing all the songs.

[00:07:26] Tana: So yeah, I did that too.

[00:07:28] Sarah: Did you?

[00:07:31] Tana: I used saltine crackers for the communion wafer. With my Barbies and my, yeah.

[00:07:37] Man. I, I wanted nothing to do

[00:07:40] Don: with church when it was over.

[00:07:41] Tana: And the funny thing is out of the three of us, you're the pastor.

[00:07:44] Don: No, the funny thing is out of the three of us, our society has shaped me to be in the most likely to, to go after feeling like I could stand in front of a group of people and tell 'em what to think.

[00:07:55] Tana: That is true. Yeah. That is true.

[00:07:57] Sarah: So yeah. So ancient Jesus/Future [00:08:00] faith, you know, carrying all this Into the future. Like how do we build a faith that honors the scriptures that honors God that applies to our day to day life? How do we take what we learn from the scriptures and what we know of God and apply it to the choices that we make every day.

[00:08:20] The interactions that we have, there's so much beauty in the text that can help inform us and inspire us and challenge us to, in essence, love each other well.

[00:08:32] Tana: I love that. I love that. And I, I really like the distinction you made between text and scripture because it's it, what, what it sounded like you were saying to me is that, you know it's almost like scripture.

[00:08:46] Isn't just, you know, what was written. And even though there's, you know, we say, oh, all scriptures, God breathes, you know What it, what it means to us is it's, it's, it's it's more it, there's all these connotations that come with it, all these things that are overlaid on top of it, all these interpretations over the years, what we've been taught, it means.

[00:09:05] And I like the idea like, well, but the text is, you know, we're gonna study the thing. Yeah. And not what other people have told us is the thing. Yeah. Yeah. You know? So I, I love that distinction and I. That for me is the, the one bedrock of why I'm interested in helping to build this because understanding that distinction, even though I didn't have the words for it at the time is what really helped helped me build I think a better faith over time it was sort of releasing.

[00:09:41] What I was told things meant and exploring that for myself. So you know, I've been married to Don for [mumbles] years and

[00:09:54] Don: these microphones are really nice.

[00:09:56] Tana: Yeah. and and so you [00:10:00] know, I was alongside him for his journey in kind of breaking that mold and learned over time, you know? Oh, well, You know, here's how you can study the original language.

[00:10:11] And what did those words mean? And then here's the context. Here's what it was like in Jesus' time. And so when he said this, the people at that time heard this and like, that was just that to me, that is just so much more invigorating than this sort of like list of rules and expectations that in evangelicalism has kind of become, and I want to help other people experience that.

[00:10:40] Don: Yeah. You know, actually Tana, if you don't mind, I'd really like to hear your thoughts on, on something. And I know how much you adore being put on the spot.

[00:10:49] Tana: Oh, I love it.

[00:10:50] Don: Just so you know, if you're watching this, anytime you see Tana take a sip of water when I'm about to ask her. So that's like a nervous reflex is she does, she's preparing herself for the question, but the question is

[00:11:01] Tana: this is vodka

[00:11:02] Don: it's vodka? And we're recording this on Saturday morning.

[00:11:07] So, so to my question to you is with having a background in literature English lit particularly, but then also rhetoric and everything. How important is ethereal intent. And I know that there's a debate in the industry. just so to speak on whether or not ethereal intent matters, but, but let me preface it a little bit or, or kind of couch it in some, in some way.

[00:11:34] I think when we're talking about just a pure piece of art, authorial intent doesn't necessarily matter a bunch it's, it's also how the viewer, the, the person reading it, how they receive it has a, a great amount of significance, right? But I think the moment we talk about scripture.

[00:11:56] Tana: You're stepping on my answer, man.

[00:11:57] Don: Okay. well, then [00:12:00]

[00:12:00] Tana: like, you're asking the question and you're answering how I've you know how I would answer?

[00:12:05] Don: I am a middle aged white man.

[00:12:10] I will, I will be quiet now.

[00:12:12] Tana: I, I, so this is what make, made me a bad English major. But I think a good rhetoric scholar. So I got my master's in English literature and, and, and just, I was a bad English lit lit major. But then I got a PhD in rhetoric and writing, as you do know,

[00:12:31] Don: nobody that has a PhD was ever a bad, anything in school, just so know

[00:12:36] Tana: Okay, fair. But so I in English literature circles, a lot of the people were like, well, the theorial intent doesn't matter. What was written, doesn't matter what matters is what the, the readers bring to it. Right. And that bothers me a lot because I was just like, if I write something, there's something, I mean, by it, like there's.

[00:12:59] There's a meaning behind it that was created by me. you will listen. No. And, and so that was just such a, such a difficult concept for me, especially since it didn't seem to bear out because for me anyway, because I remember specifically on my poetry exam, I had to, you know, like analyze a poem and discuss what I thought the meaning was.

[00:13:23] And, and they were basically like, that was the, the one really, really bad part of my portfolio. They were like, eh, you barely passed because we don't think this is a good interpretation. I was like, whoa, whoa, wait, wait. I thought you said authorial intent doesn't matter. And. All everything, all interpretations are viable.

[00:13:40] And so it was just kind of funny anyway. That's my, my constant ongoing war with poetry, but

[00:13:46] Don: we'll tag all your professors.

[00:13:50] Tana: yeah, I'll get a call. So but then when it comes to where you use the, the, the principles of rhetoric in a, in a more of like maybe an argument or, or [00:14:00] something like that, obviously, or authorial matters or speaker intent because there's, there's more, I think at stake there. So what you were saying Don was like a piece of art. You're like, well, it doesn't kind of really matter what an artist is, is doing there. It, you know, it's how people receive it. And I would say most artists probably actually believe that to a certain extent.

[00:14:18] Don: Yeah. I do wanna be careful though, because I'm not saying it doesn't matter what the artist felt. It, it just, that it isn't pertinent to the meaning of the painting when it comes to other. right.

[00:14:32] Tana: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So but so when that comes then to scripture or the text obviously authorial intent is of the most I importance.

[00:14:42] And it's, it's interesting to me because I think a lot of people over the years have infused their political ideologies their sensibilities from their time their desire to stay in power you know, Kings James like all of that into interpretations of scripture. And it's, it's a, it's always so strange to me because those infusions into scripture are what a lot of evangelical Christianity was built on leading up into recent time. But when we attempt to kind of strip away those things and go what it was the authorial the author's intent we're accused of infusing something in scripture that's not there. Yeah. When really, what we're trying to do is chip away.

[00:15:37] Don: Certainly. I mean, it does kind of backfire and, you know, these are the types of things that we'll get into, even in greater depth when, when we have conversations around specific passages in the text, or we get into you know, interpretation and methods of interpretation and everything. So I just really appreciate you. I know you don't don't like being put on the spot, but thank you for doing so [00:16:00]

[00:16:00] Tana: just put my doctor hat on.

[00:16:02] Don: Yes. I only have a bicycle hat. So,

[00:16:07] Tana: So anyway. Yeah, I actually I appreciate that question because I think it's, I think it's very important. It gets, it gets at what Sarah was talking about. You know, scripture versus the text. So just to kind of add to what we're talking about here and what we're interested in accomplishing with this podcast.

[00:16:28] The interesting thing to me is that what, what we're really bucking against a lot with this podcast is the label evangelical evangelical evangelicalism Which in a, in a lot of ways we, we are saying, you know, is a label that is dying, like that we need to find the next thing after evangelicalism.

[00:16:49] And we had a conversation the other day that I wanna kind of bring back up again. If so, right with you too, about those la- labels that we have applied to us or applied to ourselves and Sarah, you had a really interesting contribution along that line about kind of labels that you carry and then what what the kind of what those would imply to other people.

[00:17:12] Sarah: Right.

[00:17:12] Tana: Can you elaborate on that?

[00:17:13] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So this actually comes out of a conversation, Don and I had like maybe a couple months ago in discipleship and just realizing, I mean, I hate labels and I actually like hate identifying myself by certain things, because I just feel like no label ever fits.

[00:17:34] And but we were just laughing because I was trying to explain my thoughts on this to Don. And I said, I mean, Don, if you, I mean, if you're not watching the video, I'm a white Christian homeschooling mom grew up in suburban Midwest. and if you knew those labels and that's all you knew of me, you [00:18:00] might have a very particular picture of who I am and what I believe.

[00:18:05] And I see it because when I run in different circles, even the conversation will assume things. Yes. Right? Like I'll be in a certain circle and somebody will make a comment. And it's just like, as if it's a given that like, of course you're gonna be on the same as me on this topic. Right. And I'm like not really. surprise. So yeah, just the idea of like, I mean, did you really think that you were, when you turned on this podcast were you really excited to hear from a white middle aged pastor? A pastor's wife

[00:18:39] Don: I was, and I was totally excited about it.

[00:18:41] Sarah: A Christian homeschooling mom

[00:18:44] yes. Run!

[00:18:46] Don: And hopefully you all didn't end the podcast

[00:18:52] yeah, I think that those, I mean, just even if you take one of those things, particularly within association to Christian and that's homeschooling, right. And that label in and of itself just carries so much extra, I don't wanna say baggage, because I don't think it should necessarily be baggage, but it just carries so much extra because there's assumptions that immediately an individual will make about the reason you've chosen that route.

[00:19:25] And maybe not even just why you chose the route, because I think people can kind of wrap their brain around that, but maybe the opposite of it. Why you picked against like a public school or a public gathering. And there's, there's a lot of assumptive activities there. So Sarah for you because I know that this whole thing, and even in your, why at the beginning you brought up, you know, ancient Jesus.

[00:19:49] So you and I have had conversations, Tana and I, all three of us have had lots of conversations around how there's even labels in the text.[00:20:00] So did you wanna at all share some of that piece and how that kind of infiltrates, even in our reading of something, as that's relatively, we think simple, but as soon as we, as soon as we hear it's coming from a, a white suburbanite homeschool, mid Midwestern woman we automatically have assumptions about what you're, you're trying to communicate.

[00:20:20] And I think the same thing is true in the text when we have. These individuals speaking. So, anyhow, I'd just like to hear more from you on that.

[00:20:29] Sarah: I was hoping that you were gonna cover that part.

[00:20:31] Don: Oh, you were well, I'd be happy to but I, so, well, of course, first of all, Sarah, you knows that what we're referring to as the Pharisees.

[00:20:42] Right, right. And there's another group too. That's really important. And that is if you ever look, and I think the NIV does it and Luke 15, you'll see it where it says, and Jesus ate with the sinners and sinners will be in quotes. And I would argue these are scare quotes not just, you know, quotes they're scare quotes because sinner was, had a connotation in its day that doesn't exist today.

[00:21:13] Or I shouldn't say it doesn't exist. It's just that we mask it differently. So a sinner in first century, Israel, second temple Judaism would've been someone like a tanner or a tax collector or a prostitute. I think today prostitute might be the, the thing that many people within Christendom and other religions, or just more conservative about their perspective on sexuality, et cetera, would view as they're a sinner because of what they do for a living, right? But that's really, at the end of the day, what sinner meant in ancient times was someone who their day to day life in some way, disrupted what Torah had called upon them to live and to function. [00:22:00] And not necessarily always just sin as in not doing what you're supposed to, but also purity laws would be broken because like a Tanner, you, if you don't know anything about tanning, especially in ancient processes, I'm not gonna go into it on this podcast, but you can Google it and you, you'll be upset you did because the, of what they used to tan, the hides. All of this leads to a group of people being called sinners and lumped together in our imagination, we would never look at a group of people who worked for the IRS, people who do taxidermy and, or make blankets and stuff out of leather, the leather work and and then prostitutes and go, "we, we, those are all lumped together." Like we wouldn't, right. I don't think we would categorize that group together. Yeah. But in ancient Judaism, they were categorized together. The other big one is Pharisee. So for most of you listening, watching you probably had a similar experience to myself and I believe Tana and Sarah, you both had a similar experience that the word Pharisees or the name Pharisee immediately implied a bad guy on the scene.

[00:23:11] Sarah: Mm-hmm

[00:23:12] Tana: Right. Yeah.

[00:23:12] Don: In fact, we've heard from the pulpit, don't be a Pharisee or you Pharisees or Pharisaic. I'm gonna break the news to our listeners pretty early in this podcast, but it is most likely that Jesus identified himself as a Pharisee.

[00:23:27] Tana: [gasps dramatically] I felt like that needed- like, duh, dun, dun! Yeah. I felt like I needed to add the proper reaction.

[00:23:38] Don: You actually startled me. I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything. It's it's important though, because Paul, when he's standing before the, the Sanhedrin, which is the council that is made up of Sadducees and Pharisees, when Paul's standing in front of this group, he, he says to them, I am a Pharisee and [00:24:00] this is post his Damascus road experience.

[00:24:02] So Paul does not feel like a Pharisee or the label pharisee is something that he needed to discard in order to recognize and believe Jesus to be Messiah. And because of that, it's really important. So Paul says I'm a Pharisee, I'm a Pharisee of Pharisees. Basically my dad was a Pharisee. My grandpa was a Pharisee.

[00:24:21] I grew up in a lineage and a household of Pharisees and Jesus, the way Jesus approached scripture approached people, approached the law. All of those things are very P arisaic that Jesus embraced Torah, the wisdom literature. That the prophets, whereas a Sadducee, for instance, would've only embraced Torah.

[00:24:46] Okay. So, so much about what Jesus does is declares him to be a Pharisee. And this is really important and goes a long way in kind of showing early in our discussions, how important it is to understand an ancient Jesus. Because when we use Pharisee as a derogatory term from the pulpit, we are categorizing people in an anti-Jewish way at best and an anti-Semitic way at worst.

[00:25:19] And that's really significant because today's Judaism, modern Judaism - and I wanna be very clear here and make this, and I'll probably make this caveat caveat quite often. I know way more about ancient Judaism than I know about modern Judaism. I've read lots of modern rabbis, but for the most part, I stick with ancient Jewish concepts, but modern Judaism is a direct evolution of Pharisees.

[00:25:53] So the Pharisees are who survived, carried on studying the Torah and moved it outside of the temple in Jerusalem. When this [00:26:00] temple was destroyed and carried on the study of the scriptures that later became the rabbinic movement. And the rabbinic movement is what has led us to modern day Judaism. So I hope that we kind of realize that when you think about Pharisee as a negative, you are saying something unintentionally, but you are saying something against the Jewish community around you.

[00:26:26] When you view it negatively, because that is their heritage, that is their, their story. That is the line of their faith is Pharisee into rabbis tradition to modern Judaism.

[00:26:38] Sarah: I think it was interesting when you were saying that Paul didn't feel the need to discard that label. And it just felt very, it just resonated with me because I don't feel like I want to, to discard the label of Christian, but it's becoming an extremely loaded label.

[00:27:01] Tana: Oh yeah

[00:27:03] Don: Yeah. Or even label of homeschooling mom. Like that you can be proud. And that is the complication. I think we all face right now is that in this setting, that we're in it, you don't know what, in fact, Tana, you and I were just talking about this yesterday.

[00:27:20] Like what do we redeem and what do we abandon? Right. And that's such a complicated piece for me.

[00:27:29] Tana: Yeah. Yeah. Because there are people who have reclaimed labels, but then there are people who are like, I reject that label. I'm going to, to accept something else. And and sometimes you have labels thrust upon you.

[00:27:38] I was reading David Gushee's book After Evangelicalism the other day. And he was quoting another person DG Hart. Who said "it is curious that the evangelical moment movement, sorry, in the United States is so oppressive that it can claim even those who do not want to belong to it,' which I thought was [00:28:00] really interesting.

[00:28:01] Because one of the things that, that Gushee discusses is that there's all these sort of different denominations that sort of ended up folding into evangelicalism and sort of losing what made their denomination unique or whatever and just kind of getting glommed up into this evangelical monster that, you know, no one could really define that.

[00:28:23] Well, anyway. And so it's interesting because for example, sorry, I keep referring to your labels, Sarah, but you know, you saying, "well, I'm a, I'm a Christian homeschool mom." Immediately, I think people would apply that label evangelical to you, then

[00:28:40] Sarah: mm-hmm,

[00:28:41] Don: absolutely

[00:28:41] Tana: whether or not you wanted it.

[00:28:43] Don: Absolutely.

[00:28:43] Tana: And so that, that, that becomes problematic. And then for me, if I'm very careful about how I introduce myself, because if I say, oh, well, I'm a pastor's wife, boom, evangelical slapped across my forehead.

[00:28:55] Don: Just so you know, I have never heard you introduce yourself as a pastor's wife

[00:28:59] Tana: That's because I will not .

[00:29:02] Sarah: And that's part of what was so funny in the original conversation is that I don't think of you as a pastor's wife, but technically you are.

[00:29:08] Tana: And that and then those labels also carry expectations. You know when, when in earlier days at a different church, you know, because I was the pastor's wife, then it was like expected that I do certain things and behave certain ways, you know?

[00:29:23] And I think, I think that's another reason why we resist labels, right. Because it's like, oh, well, if you label me this way, then you're expecting X, Y, Z out of me and you're not gonna get it. so yeah. Don, do you have any labels that you worry about, you know, branding you a certain way?

[00:29:50] Don: I mean, yeah. A lot of mine are a little bit more obvious in the sense of like, just look at me and, and you have labels

[00:29:59] Tana: But for our [00:30:00] listeners...

[00:30:01] Don: no, I, I wasn't even saying that. I'm just saying that middle-aged white male and the labels that get placed upon that. Rightfully so. And this is the other part that's important. Some labels are necessary in order to prevent causing danger to someone. And, and again, part of our, our mistakes that we make is that we're not an introspective enough group of people to determine or to determine well, if our, our labels that we use are stereotypes, bigoted prejudicial, and harmful, or if they are genuinely good label to keep you yourself safe in a situation. So it's, it's kind of interesting this, this topic, because really I'm of two minds in a lot of ways around "middle-aged white male." One, I know all the things that come with it, of what people are going to anticipate out of me.

[00:31:09] First of all as a quick side note on that, which makes it easier to live into it, too, right? If I know people are gonna give me the mic literally in this case, and I can just talk, I'm going to and I assume it's because I have something brilliant to say, not because I am confused about whether or not I am- actually have anything of value to say, but I think that there's importance because I have lots of people in my life that are people of color, who, those labels about "middle-aged white male" are healthy boundaries in certain situations to not find themselves in, in a place in which they could be harmed, whether emotionally, physically, spiritually, whatever it might [00:32:00] be. So I think that those labels have value at- for the world and they're also really hard for me to, to, to as well. And one of my other labels, and this is definitely for those watching, not listening is I've often been pegged as a hipster. I'm almost 50. I'm too old and lazy to be a hipster. And so what happened is I was not. And somehow my, my look of wearing bicycle hats, glasses, and having a long goatee somehow became a good label.

[00:32:34] Tana: So you're the people who hipsters copy.

[00:32:37] Don: oh God. I have no interest in.

[00:32:40] Tana: Does that make you the original hipster?

[00:32:43] I

[00:32:43] Don: have the only, okay. We can stop. So what labels do you have?

[00:32:48] Tana: I already discussed my labels. No, but what you were saying about how sometimes, you know, the labels prevent, you know, people from being harmed.

[00:32:58] Sure. I did not word that well, but anyway that makes me think then again, about the, the label evangelical. Do you do either of you think that that label carries with it inherent harm?

[00:33:16] Don: Sarah you passed the Pharisee thing onto me. It's all yours.

[00:33:21] Sarah: I don't know. And I don't think I can speak to this one.

[00:33:27] Don: Yeah.

[00:33:28] Yeah. Evangelical

[00:33:30] Sarah: I've never felt applied to me. I think because of coming out of Catholicism, which was pretty much when I was an adult, like in my twenties and I never quite understood what evangelicalism even enveloped. As you mentioned that in the book that you were reading, that it kind of became this thing that is hard to define.

[00:33:50] So every time I hear the word, I kind of wonder, I'm like, well, what denominations are wrapped up in this? What, what is this implying? So, so I don't know if I can answer if I [00:34:00] think that there's inherent harm in the term.

[00:34:04] Tana: Don, do you have a thought on that?

[00:34:06] Don: Well, first of all, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[00:34:09] I'm I'm gonna pull something up. Hopefully

[00:34:11] Tana: he just keeps passing the buck.

[00:34:14] Don: no, I look here's, here's the problem. I'm a middle-aged white man. So I want to just, I could just take over and everyone expect that I don't want to do that. Sure, sure. But I, I wanna hand it back to you. I do want to actually, I'm gonna pull something from David Gushee's book that I think is helpful, but I just didn't have it up at the moment, so.

[00:34:33] Tana: Sure, sure. Yeah. I just think that there is, I think there are some inherent assumptions in what an evangelical is now that I don't think were always true or maybe they were only true of maybe certain evangelicals and it sort of all got kind of fuzzy along the way, but, you know I think because of our current political climate there is a, a lot of heavy implication in the, in the term evangelical cuz what was it like 82% of evangelicals voted for Trump in the 2016 election. And, and there's an, an interesting turn in a lot of churches where you know, I think there was like a, a Trump Bible. And there's just a, a level of,

[00:35:27] Don: I may have thrown up a little in my mouth there

[00:35:30] Tana: and well, and Trump was autographing Bibles, which just feels inherently disgusting to me. And there is this weird worship level with him that I don't feel like has happened with other political leaders.

[00:35:45] I think there has been like maybe like a hero worship you know, of other political leaders of like, oh man, this person's so great, but, but it feels like this, you know, recent turn in evangelicalism [00:36:00] brought it to more of like a, oh, this is a God ordained second coming of Christ kind of thing, which, which is dangerous.

[00:36:06] And so, so for me now, it almost feels like the, the, the, the, the label evangelical has been tainted by the political angle of it and would be very difficult to unravel.

[00:36:20] Don: Right? Well, and this, this goes to so many pieces, right? That I, it's not about what denomination you're a part of or... it's about what are the influences that have impacted your understanding of faith?

[00:36:34] I think is the argument about whether or not you would be an evangelical, so let me read you this list. First of all, I think it's humorous in, in what I relate to in it, but I think it's also kind of gives us a sense. So Sarah, maybe you can take the test with us live and just put a hashtag every time you would, you would say, okay.

[00:36:53] Yes, I know what that is. Or I'm familiar with it. Deeply familiar. Okay. All right:

[00:37:00] Lord, I lift your name on high. So if that, if that phrase, that quote or has familiarity to you, you might be an evangelical. You might be an evangelical and it's just gonna keep building all: Bob Jones. John Piper.

[00:37:16] Yeah. Biblical inerrancy. Complementarianism. I kiss dating goodbye. 700 club. John MacArthur. The Message. Eugene Peterson, Wheaton college. Purity rings. Asuza Pacific. Reparative therapy. Moody. Left Behind. [00:38:00] Veggietales. Hell houses, Zondervan, Tim Lehaye. God didn't make Adam and Steve.

[00:38:14] Tana: Oh boy.

[00:38:15] Don: Tony Evans, Christian Zion.

[00:38:21] The rapture. Father hold me.

[00:38:28] So this is kind of like the checklist that was that Gushee kind of puts out that if, if you have like 20 of these checked around 20 of these checked, then you probably are evangelical.

[00:38:40] Tana: I had 23.

[00:38:40] Don: Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think the only one I didn't have was the very last one, which is father hold me.

[00:38:47] I have no clue what that is. And maybe because I have dad issues I don't, I, I blocked it out. I don't know. So, yeah. So you had 23. Did you, did you keep track?

[00:38:57] Sarah: I didn't keep track, but all of those terms and phrases. When I came to Protestantism, it was the things I was trying to catch up on because people would toss those things around.

[00:39:06] And I didn't know what they were talking about.

[00:39:08] Tana: The beginner's guide to evangelicalism.

[00:39:10] Sarah: So yeah.

[00:39:10] Don: so hear that David Gushee, you nailed it.

[00:39:14] Tana: Yeah, me for me that was like it was like a revisiting my young adult days because I, I Converted, I guess from Catholicism when I was like 16, and so all of that was like stuff I grew up with or, you know... I think I read every single one except for the last left behind books.

[00:39:31] Don: And real quick, I wanna say to our listeners and watchers, if you're watching on YouTube, leave a comment. How many of those you got rewind it, go back through it. And I'd love to hear what our listeners, if they, if they also did well, it's almost, it's almost shocking how much that lands.

[00:39:48] So yeah, one,

[00:39:50] Sarah: I know we're almost out of time. But that list was really helpful, but I just wanted to say, especially to our listeners that maybe that list [00:40:00] tugged on some of your heartstrings, possibly. Maybe there's nostalgia and feelings around some of those things, and maybe it hit you in a different way than it hits us.

[00:40:10] And I just wanna say that wherever you are in your faith journey, you are welcome here as listeners, as interacting the best way that you can. I think for the three of us, I think I can speak for the three of us to say that community and hearing everyone's voice is extremely important to us, which is why

[00:40:28] Don: absolutely

[00:40:29] Sarah: the pod- a podcast is some kind of a funny venue for us, a limiting venue, because usually we want to engage more with whoever is listening, but we're hoping to open opportunities for you to be able to speak back into that. But wherever you are in your faith, I encourage you to hang with us. Come back, keep listening.

[00:40:49] And you're welcome here. Whether you agree or disagree or you just don't know. This is a safe place, a safe place to ask questions, a safe place to be a safe place to interact with around faith and a God that loves us.

[00:41:05] Don: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I love that. And I'm really grateful. You said that Sarah, I think one of the things that is really important to me is that we're not trying to say we have figured it out.

[00:41:20] Or that we genuinely know what's next or that we have something to say about the future of Christendom, but rather we've all experienced things we felt dissatisfied with, with where things are currently. And we've been lucky enough to find a group of people around us to figure it out as best we can together.

[00:41:43] And we just wanna share that we wanna, we wanna invite as many people that want to come along and figure it out with us. So if you're a five check mark person, you're a 25 check mark person, or you're a 25 check mark person but 10 of those things in that check mark [00:42:00] still deeply resonate with you, kind of like what you were saying, Sarah, and they're still very important to. There's room there's room on this, on this bus there's room in this discussion. And yeah. Thank you for saying that, Sarah.

[00:42:14] Tana: I think that's a very both of you made very important points and yes, thank you, Sarah, for taking us down this thought process here that it is what we, what we are trying to do is, is chip away the things that have been added to Jesus that aren't supposed to be there. Not,

[00:42:33] Don: or aren't supposed to be authoritarian, right?

[00:42:35] Tana: Yeah. Not get rid of Jesus. Not destroy the Bible. Not you know, it's not like, well, this didn't work, so let's obliterate it and start fresh. It's it's trying to figure out what, what is redeemable and what is good and carry forward with what is good.

[00:42:53] And maybe let go of the things that are oppressive are harmful. And I think that's, that's a very important distinction, so it doesn't just seem like, "well, we're done, that's it. Evangelicalism is over and there's nothing good about it. So let's just bury it and move on." So I think what's really going to be great is that we're gonna continue to have those conversations of playing with those things and figuring out what is, what is good and beautiful and, and what can we build upon that will create a, a, a beautiful and wonderful accepting and loving and strong and courageous faith and let go of the things that harm. And I think that is the kind of exploration that we're looking for here, and we hope people will, you know, join us in that.

[00:43:44] Don: Absolutely.

[00:43:45] Tana: Yeah. Any final, final words. Sarah or Don?

[00:43:49] Sarah: I don't think so.

[00:43:51] Don: No, that's great. If you're still here, we're really excited to have you here. And we hope you join us on this journey and you [00:44:00] continue to listen and we really do want this to be. As Sarah said, it's kind of shocking that we would pick a podcast to do this because we, we appreciate discourse and conversation so much.

[00:44:13] So we would love for our listeners and our viewers to really take us up on that, reach out to us in the different social media platforms that we have. And don't hesitate. And one of us will get back to you. We will. Yeah.

[00:44:31] Tana: And look at- look for us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube. Our website should be up by then

[00:44:37] Don: and Twitch.

[00:44:38] Tana: Oh, and Twitch see, we're adding new things every day. so, so you know, yeah. Just look for us. Drop us line and plus we'll have new. Podcast episodes every week on on anywhere you listen to your podcast and you two and that's yeah, that's it. So that's that's all for today. We thank you, Sarah and Don, for all of your amazing thoughts and please join us next time.

[00:45:03] And in the meantime, find us on those platforms. Bye. Thank you. Thanks.