Podcast Episode 115 Transcript: Is the Heart Deceitful Above All Things? (Emotions Part 1)

Listen here or watch on YouTube.

Resources: Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Peter Scazzero.

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[00:00:00] Sarah: Yeah. And it was kind of like, as you were sharing that, I could just picture like using this verse, convincing people that they can't trust their heart, but if you can't trust your heart, like what can you trust? Oh, I guess I can trust the pastor so I can trust.

[00:00:15] So it's another like little,

[00:00:17] Don: oh, a hundred percent

[00:00:18] Tana: little nudge towards authoritarian,

[00:00:19] Sarah: towards control.

[00:00:19] Yeah.

[00:00:20] ​

[00:00:25] Sarah: Hello and welcome to the Ancient Jesus Future Faith podcast. I am one of your hosts, Tana Schiewer, and I am joined with joined by, joined with, I don't know.

[00:00:36] Joining me today, Sarah Mainardi.

[00:00:38] Hello.

[00:00:38] Tana: And Don Schiewer.

[00:00:39] Don: Hey.

[00:00:40] Tana: And today we are going to talk about emotions. So I wanted to start off by asking I don't know which one of you wants to hop in first, but what have you been taught about emotions in the church or by your pastors, by other people in the church?

[00:01:00] Sarah: I think that the emphasis on the heart being deceitful, not being able to trust emotions. I had a Facebook memory pop up a little while ago from, I didn't really look to see how many years ago, but it was something like forget happiness, give me joy. So this idea that like, joy is better than happiness in some way.

[00:01:27] Yeah. So those are, what about you, Don?

[00:01:31] Don: I think growing up emotions were, were kind of almost a viewed as a, a competitor to God and prayer, right? Like that if you let emotions take you that, in some way that was manipulating the relationship with God, or it was an unclear view of what God wanted. And so that you were, [00:02:00] in some way, you were kind of not only to check your brain at the door, but check your emotions at the door to when it came to prayer expression of faith.

[00:02:08] And I, I think I may have mentioned before on this podcast, you know, I grew up in a church that was like the frozen chosen, right? Like, if you took too deep of a breath, you were like too charismatic for the church. So I think that probably also had, had a bit to do with it, right? That emotions are- particularly in more frozen communities- I don't know a different way to say it- emotions tend to be more associated with charismatic. And so it was just, it was just very much like leave your emotions at home, that they don't really have a place in your faith unless you are rejoicing at something God has done for you.

[00:02:50] Tana: Hmm. Yeah. I didn't even think about that from the Pentecost, like the Pentecostal thing, the, and the frozen chosen. That always makes me laugh cause I never heard that until you said it. But it, it resonates with me because I as I've said before I grew up Catholic and then I went to a sort of more fundamentalist church that was not Pentecostal. And so, yeah, it was very like, I don't know, just you were just there.

[00:03:17] You did- I don't, I don't know how to express it. It's not like, I don't wanna say it was completely, completely emotionless, but it was reserved.

[00:03:25] Don: There were, there were unspoken rules of appropriate emotion for, for the moment.

[00:03:31] Tana: Yeah.

[00:03:31] Don: Right? Like, and it was very obvious to everyone if you expressed the inappropriate emotion in the wrong moment.

[00:03:40] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I think like emotions are not meant to be used in. Decision making, but it's even as you were saying that, you know, I know that there's like traditions out there that play out emotions a lot in how they preach or how they do worship, so that, there's some of [00:04:00] that happening, which is somewhat opposite.

[00:04:02] And then there was the whole seeker sensitive thing where those churches were coming up and there were actually spoken rules that said, don't raise your hands because we don't, we wanna make the seeker comfortable. Right?

[00:04:15] Tana: Yes. Right. I forgot that aspect of it, but that was like a seeker sensitive thing.

[00:04:19] Don: Yeah. I have a feeling this is a predominantly Protestant maybe Catholic as well, but predominantly Protestant, white, suburban, non charismatic issue, right? And, and maybe not when it comes to prayer and stuff or how you come to the place of knowing what you need when you're seeking God, but I think just in general of how you carry yourself within a church structure.

[00:04:51] Tana: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, sarah.

[00:04:55] Sarah: No, I was just gonna say, you know, I think that might be true for like, in terms of worship and services and like expressing joy and things like that, but I think when we talk about like anger and sadness and grief, that there might be the, the pot might be bigger of more, more denominations being, having the same problem with how to deal with those

[00:05:16] Don: Oh, yeah.

[00:05:17] Sarah: In relationships and things like that.

[00:05:18] Don: That makes sense.

[00:05:19] Tana: So yeah, that's one I, I 100% agree. And we, we asked some folks on social about this, you know, and asked their experience and a few people responded that, the, the idea was you can't trust your emotions. Which I think is really interesting because I remember being taught that growing up like, your, your emotions are not trustworthy.

[00:05:48] Yeah. And I thought it was funny, the one person commented, "I find it amusing that a faith riddled with absurdities often tries to discredit the emotional part of human existence to stick with what? [00:06:00] Logic, facts, science?" And that's, that's really interesting to me. The, the, you can't trust your emotions, but faith is, it feels inherently emotional.

[00:06:13] . ,

[00:06:13] I, I don't know. What do you think about that?

[00:06:17] Sarah: Well, I think we're made in the image of God, and I think God is emotional. And I think we're designed to feel these different emotions and that if we ignore or discredit our emotions completely, that we're missing. A whole piece of ourselves. You know, we've got the physical, the social, the emotional all these different pieces of ourself that that I believe reflect God's image in us.

[00:06:45] So when emotions are downplayed or not trusted or, or just put to the side, we're, we're missing something.

[00:06:55] Tana: Yeah. One, one of the things I have often wondered about this sort of moratorium on emotions and this idea, specifically the idea that you can't trust emotions is how that's been weaponized against women in particular in the church. Because I feel like as a society, as a. We have this weird thing where we're like, women are emotional.

[00:07:25] Yeah. And we specify specific emotions with that. Right. So we're like like sadness, grief, a lot of people would call it hysteria, you know, things like that. So women cry and women do this. Women do it with that, they're irrational. Whereas somehow anger is not an emotion in, in, in this like discussion sometimes, you know?

[00:07:51] Yeah. So like, like we see angry male politicians all the time, and then there's people who will be like, women shouldn't, a woman can't be [00:08:00] president, she's too emotional. And I'm like, have you seen some of the dudes who are president ?

[00:08:04] Sarah: Yes. Right.

[00:08:05] Tana: Like, you know, and so there's this part of me that wonders if a lot of this like, oh, you can't trust emotions message in the church is just another way to oppress women. Right.

[00:08:19] Sarah: And it's in control. Yeah. Because we wanna control what we wanna tell you. What makes you happy?

[00:08:27] Tana: Yeah.

[00:08:27] Sarah: You coming to church makes you happy. You coming to Bible study makes you happy.

[00:08:32] Tana: Oh, oh, don't forget you serving your husband

[00:08:35] Sarah: Yes.

[00:08:35] Tana: Makes you happy.

[00:08:36] Sarah: Yeah. We wanna tell you the things that make you happy. So if you're feeling happiness in other areas, then be careful. You, you're, you're missing the mark.

[00:08:48] Tana: Yeah. Interesting choice of words.

[00:08:51] Don: So what would you say, because, you know, I've had this conversation telling you, and I've had this conversation quite a bit but I'm curious if there's some other emotions that maybe I'm not, I haven't heard the, the male descriptor of that emotion.

[00:09:05] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:09:06] Don: And the female descriptor of that emotion, such as a male is passionate. But a female is hysterical.

[00:09:13] Tana: Right, right.

[00:09:14] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:09:15] Don: And it's the same emotion, or a man is determined and a woman is nagging.

[00:09:21] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:09:21] Tana: Right.

[00:09:22] Don: Right. So can you think of other things like that? That

[00:09:27] Tana: there's gotta be, I'm sure there's a list somewhere.

[00:09:29] Don: Maybe our listeners can help us out too. Yeah.

[00:09:32] Sarah: Well I think like a man being angry would be a woman overreacting.

[00:09:37] Don: Oh, that's

[00:09:38] Tana: so righteous anger versus

[00:09:39] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:09:40] Tana: Overreaction.

[00:09:42] Don: Yeah. I think, yeah, that's definitely... the overreacting kind of hits hard, right? Yeah. Like, because that, that doesn't only tell you, I mean, it just feels like that communicates so much more than just, hey, simmer down a little bit.

[00:09:56] Right. That's...

[00:09:57] Tana: The thing I hate is that, [00:10:00] for me personally, I don't know if other women struggle with this, but so I have, as, as you both know, I have an autonomic instability. And for people who don't know what that means, it basically means my autonomic nervous system, which controls like almost all the basic bodily functions just can get easily thrown out of whack.

[00:10:23] And one of the thing, one of the side effects of that is when I am stressed I get, I can, I can easily get into sort of a panic attack kind of place and it immediately shows up as tears. And so a lot of times if I'm in a stressful situation, say even at a job and there's a confrontation or whatever, the tears start going and I hate that.

[00:10:55] Because I know that in a lot of people's minds that immediately discounts anything. I'm gonna say. Yeah. Any, any emotions I'm feeling are just, wow, that's an overreaction. Like, oh, we must have touched a nerve there, or whatever. Whereas if that, if that wasn't how it showed up and I got angry, instead it feels like if I got angry and was male, it feels like that would be more acceptable.

[00:11:24] Do you

[00:11:24] Don: think that the, do you think that the, maybe the, the underlying lie behind this, particularly since, you know, we're in a, a male dominated culture, whether we like it or not, and do you think it's that there's a sense that men believe, falsely, that they're in control of the emotion, so therefore they're able to have it.

[00:11:53] But someone

[00:11:54] Tana: interesting

[00:11:54] Don: women are not in control because you were talking about kind of like that you [00:12:00] can't control the tears. Yeah. And for some reason that, that, that hit me and I'm like, huh, I wonder if men as a whole or just the, the way men have been socialized to think and even think about women is that, you know, you can go 95 miles per hour down the highway because you know how to control the car. Yeah. Right. But other people shouldn't go down the highway at that speed because they're not as good at controlling this outta control vehicle. And so, I don't know, it just, it struck me. I don't know that there's anything to it.

[00:12:36] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I think that, like, it just made me think it's, I've never thought of emotions this way, but. It's another beautiful piece of like how we're made differently. So yours is a medical condition. . . . But I also have one friend I think of in particular that is pretty quick to cry when she's like sharing things. And I would say I am very slow to ever get to the point of crying.

[00:13:04] Tana: Interesting.

[00:13:04] Don: Challenge accepted .

[00:13:08] Sarah: And, but I think like, you know, it just reminds me of this idea of like, especially in marriage, my husband and I talk about like learning each other and studying each other and like that it is a beautiful gift to like learn your friends and your, in your relationships.

[00:13:24] Like how do different people handle emotions and and or not even handle, but how do they express their emotions? Because for one person, tears might be pretty common. So not that you dismiss it, you know, not to say like, oh Tana is crying again. Forget it, you know? But, It, you can take that, all that information in.

[00:13:46] And I'm mostly talking about it not being a medical thing, but then like when you see somebody who never cries crying and then you take that with a different That's true. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you don't take it with a grain of salt. So it's [00:14:00] another beautiful expression of individual individuality. And I wanted to share, kind of came to mind when you were talking about something previously, but, and I credit this to - I follow Jo Luehmann on Instagram. I hope I'm saying the name correctly.

[00:14:19] But

[00:14:19] Don: sorry Jo if she's mispronounced Jo .

[00:14:24] Tana: Oh, I know who you're talking about. Yeah. It's a woman. Yes. Uhhuh.

[00:14:27] Sarah: Okay. Yes. And so, but this idea that I saw in one of the posts about how there's acceptable, there's these like unspoken acceptable ways to ex-

[00:14:39] or limits upon expressing emotions in public settings. And they're different for women, but they're also different for minorities.

[00:14:48] Tana: Yeah.

[00:14:49] Sarah: That that there's certain ways that minorities are expected to behave in, in places because if they go too far down a wrong emotion, then it's not acceptable. So we're talking and we're talking from our experience, right?

[00:15:03] We have men and women here. We can't really speak for being minorities, but I just wanna throw that out there that I, you know, that just that idea that, and maybe someday we can bring somebody on to speak to that, but that there's also trying to be aware of people who are different from us. And if we're uncomfortable when they express the same level emotions that people the same as us, it wouldn't bother us as much.

[00:15:28] Tana: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's something I've heard a a lot that that anger from black people in particular is taken differently. And I've heard, I've heard some different black scholars talk about that. About how it's like, it's somehow, it's, it's less acceptable. Yeah. And that's, that's not fair. No, no.

[00:15:56] Don, do you have any thoughts?

[00:15:59] Don: When, [00:16:00] when we talk about emotion, but we speak about it or manage it sans the person it's attached to. . . We can't even begin to talk about healthy approaches.

[00:16:20] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:16:20] Don: Right? And, and I think one of the problems that we face in a church setting uniquely, because that's what we're talking about, but I believe this probably happens in the office, it happens in public squares, whatever, right?

[00:16:36] That there are hidden rules or sometimes maybe not so hidden of a homogenizing of the emotions. And in so doing, we really dehumanize the people that they're attached to.

[00:16:53] Sarah: Right.

[00:16:54] Tana: So, and that's, I think that's a lot of what you were saying, Sarah. It, it made me think about, you know, Tana and I, in our relationship, I'm way more the crier.

[00:17:05] When it comes to everyday life, right? Like you, there is not a day that goes by probably that either Tana or my son walks in a room and I'm not at least weepy eyed watching something. But if Tana and I are in a dispute or we're frustrated, we're arguing with each other, I shut my emotions off, which is really unhealthy, and that comes from an abusive childhood, right. Which also impacts emotions. And so it's interesting because even in the settings, the shifting of the settings, the amount of emotion that one shows is, is greatly changed. Yeah. And when we homogenize these things and say, this is the standard, then we cause either people to swallow those emotions.

[00:17:54] We cause people to pretend like they're not having them. And, and really we're, we're creating [00:18:00] time bombs, Right? In a lot of ways. So yeah. You just had me thinking about the fact that just in my own life, there's, there's things that I think people who know me in one setting would be like, wow, I'm so surprised you behave this way in this setting, speaking about the way I respond emotionally, but it's because that's how my body reacts. Right. My body feels safer in one moment to be able to cry and then protective, to not want to cry in other settings. Yeah. And or quick to anger in a certain setting as a way of survival that isn't necessary in another one, right.

[00:18:35] Sarah: Yeah. So, yeah, I think the time bomb thing, you know, is, is real. That like, if we don't, aren't able to work through our emotions, it can be like a time bomb or it can be a leak. Like they'll leak out in other ways because they're not being addressed. You know?

[00:18:52] Tana: I kind of wanna go back to what you were saying, Don, about how you wonder if like men perceive anger as something they control.

[00:19:00] Don: Well, it's because we perceive we control everything, and so that just fits in.

[00:19:05] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:19:06] Don: And I wasn't really even saying that tongue in cheek because we're raised to imagine that we are in control of not only our destiny, but many others destinies along with us.

[00:19:17] Tana: Yeah, and it's, I, I do wonder about the control piece.

[00:19:24] Like I, I'm very curious about that because I, I wonder how much of it is control versus the feeling or both that it's righteous, like that your anger's always justified? And definitely, I definitely feel like, oh, white men's anger is weaponized in interesting ways. And one of the best examples I can think of this is the confirmation hearing for [00:20:00] Brett Kavanaugh back in,

[00:20:03] Don: oh, my drinking buddy

[00:20:04] Tana: 20-

[00:20:05] I like beer!

[00:20:07] 2018, 2019. I can't remember which year it was. And you know, Christine Blasey Ford, I think that was her name testified. And immediately so there was this, you know, break from the hearing and all of the pundits on every channel, even Fox News were like,

[00:20:26] Don: She testified him about assault, right?

[00:20:28] Tana: Right.

[00:20:28] She testified against him. Sorry. Yeah. In case people don't know. Yeah, she testified that he sexually assaulted her when they were in college. And everybody afterwards was like, wow. Like, they were just, it was like really sobering. They were just like, what a credible witness. It's hard to see how anybody's gonna recover from that.

[00:20:49] Like, it was, it was this moment. And you know, and I, I was messaging with different female friends during this, and I remember thinking, oh my gosh, someone's listening. You know, it was like, huh. And then Kavanaugh testified and he yelled and cried actually. But mostly he was, he was angry and he just- and it was like so many people after that were just like,

[00:21:19] "She was lying." And that was just such a fascinating

[00:21:23] Sarah: wow

[00:21:23] Tana: little case study for me because she was very measured. She didn't even get like in incredibly emotional. She was, because she's also oh, I forget what kind of scientist she is, but she was like, well, I remember because this is what happens in the hippocampus once, like, you know what I mean? And she was very like clinical about some of it. And she was very measured. And so it wasn't even like, you could be like, well, this woman got up and was super emotional and like discount her, but the guy came up and was angry and then people were like, "well, he's so angry. I guess he was telling the truth."

[00:21:58] Like it was just, [00:22:00] yeah.

[00:22:00] Sarah: And the crying part is interesting to me too, because I feel like it's less acceptable for men to cry, but it's almost like they can keep it in their back pocket. If they get into trouble, yeah, they can pull it out and then, well, do you guys remember last night we did a live stream on the 17th of November with David Gushee, and we were talking about how like in, in certain situations where a pastor, a male pastor falls from grace.

[00:22:28] Tana: Oh, right.

[00:22:29] Sarah: Yes.

[00:22:29] Don: And, and he made the comment, he's, and I said, you know, the pastor gets up, apologizes. And everyone's like, oh, wow. You know, or asks for forgiveness and every, and he goes, "and if he can muster up a tear," is what Gushee said. And I mean, that's it right there, right? That. Wow.

[00:22:47] Sarah: Yeah. And it's so celebrated when that's like the, the baseline of what should happen in that situation.

[00:22:52] Like that's like the minimum of what should happen is an apology.

[00:22:55] Tana: An apology, right.

[00:22:56] Don: Yeah. Well, I would say the minimum that should happen is apology to the victim.

[00:22:59] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:23:00] Don: And then,

[00:23:01] Tana: yeah, that's the other thing is a lot of these cases, the pastors are apologizing to the congregation.

[00:23:05] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. So saying it the wrong way.

[00:23:08] Don: No, no, I know,

[00:23:09] Sarah: but it's like, it's like this- you did, people act like they did so much, but it's so little.

[00:23:15] Don: you did your job

[00:23:15] Sarah: and there's so much, yeah. There's so much more that should need to be done. Yeah.

[00:23:21] Tana: I showed up and did the bare minimum. Where's my applause?

[00:23:24] Don: Yeah.

[00:23:25] Okay. So I, I think that we have thoroughly convinced our audience that we have some emotional work to do.

[00:23:35] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:23:36] Tana: So you mean we like the three of us?

[00:23:39] Don: I don't want to speak for the two of you, but me has some work to do. So what is, what is the right response to emotions or what is the better response to emotions then in the church?

[00:23:53] Sarah: Well, I thought that it might be interesting to. to share this list with the, with everybody.

[00:23:59] Oh. So [00:24:00] the book I'm holding is called Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. I don't know how to work the camera, but it's by Pete Scazzero who was actually the pastor at the church I attended in Queens. Him and his wife were mentors to my husband and I, and he has a list early on in his book of the Top 10 symptoms of Emotionally Unhealthy Spirituality.

[00:24:24] Don: Cool.

[00:24:24] Tana: Oh!

[00:24:25] Sarah: So do you want me to read the whole list or should I read one and then we'll talk about it? What do you think?

[00:24:32] Tana: Whole list.

[00:24:32] Sarah: Okay. I'll read the whole list and then we'll maybe go back. Yeah. Okay. So "one is using God to run from God. Two, ignoring the emotions of anger, sadness, and fear. Three, dying to the wrong things.

[00:24:49] Four, denying the past's impact on the present. Five, dividing our lives into secular and sacred compartments. Six, doing for God instead of being with God. Seven, spiritualizing away conflict. Eight, covering over brokenness, weakness and failure. Nine, living without limits and 10 judging other people's spiritual journey."

[00:25:18] So I realize just reading those, that some of those might not make sense just on the first on the surface. So if we start with the first one, using God to run from God. Some of the things he talks about when he develops that is "when I do God's work to satisfy me, not God. When I do things in His name that he never asked me to do," I'm just reading directly from the book.

[00:25:44] "When I demonstrate Christian behaviors so significant people will think well of me."

[00:25:50] Don: Say that last one again.

[00:25:50] Sarah: When I demonstrate christian behaviors quote unquote, so significant people will think well of me. "When I focus on [00:26:00] certain theological points. For example, everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way (1 Corinthians 14:40) that are more about my own fears and unresolved issues than concern for God's truth. When I exaggerate my accomplishments for God to subtly compete with others. When I pronounce the, the Lord told me I should do this, when the truth is I think the Lord told me to do this. When I use scripture to justify sinful parts of my family, culture and nation, instead of evaluating them under his lordship."

[00:26:35] Don: I know someone I could send that book to to think about.

[00:26:41] Sarah: "When I hide behind God talk, deflecting any spotlight on my inner cracks, and becoming defensive about my failures. When I apply biblical truth selectively when it suits my purposes, but avoid situations that would require me to make significant life changes." So that's just the first one, "using God to run from God."

[00:27:01] Cuz I feel like that needed a little development.

[00:27:05] Tana: Yeah.

[00:27:06] Yeah. I feel like there was one you said, and I don't remember if it was in the description of the first one or if it was one of the other . Yeah. But it was basically the like, oh, God told me to do this.

[00:27:19] Sarah: Yeah. "When I pronounce the Lord told me I should do this when the truth is I think the Lord told me should do to do this."

[00:27:23] Tana: And I honestly think that's one of the spots where emotions can be dangerous because you can feel like, like I, I think there are people who feel like God has told them to be oppressive in some way to other people.

[00:27:43] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:27:43] Tana: And to judge them and to call out the, the sin of blah, blah, blah, because they have their own

[00:27:51] Don: damn that blah, blah, blah.

[00:27:52] Tana: Yeah. You know, that's a big sin right there. It's, I think it's listed in Corinthians and like [00:28:00] that, that one feels like that's a, that's a super, super dangerous one. And that is always one that causes me confusion.

[00:28:09] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:28:10] Tana: Of like, how do you know when God is actually telling you to do something? We should all just carry around like a a sheeps wool, and if someone says, God" told me," we'd be like, "right, well, we're gonna put this out tonight,

[00:28:26] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:28:27] Don: and, and see if it, if it has dew on it in the morning. So get back to me in the morning.

[00:28:34] Tana: and it's supposed to snow tonight. So yeah.

[00:28:39] Sarah: Well, I think this one really relates to the sixth one "doing for God instead of being with God" too, that like we can busy ourselves with God work, instead of building a relationship with God. . .

[00:28:51] Tana: Yeah.

[00:28:54] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:28:54] Don: So Tana you said something about the idea that, you know, this is where emotions can be bad. I, I think that there's probably just some emotions, well, maybe I'm gonna take that back before I even finish my sentence. I was gonna say, I think there's some emotions that are just inherently bad.

[00:29:12] Like I was thinking about jealousy and stuff, but then I think about the way the jealousy is used in the Hebrew Bible about God being jealous about Israel basically having an affair with other gods. But I, I think maybe after I kind of process this a little bit more, it's that there's some that on the surface tend to lend itself to unhealthy behavior, but is not always unhealthy behavior.

[00:29:41] And then there's some on the surface that lend itself to healthy behavior, but is not always healthy behavior. And I think like anything else in modern Western Christendom, if we can't fit the concept on a bumper sticker, we've lost, we no longer are interested. [00:30:00] Yeah. Or at least that's what the pulpit has continued to tell us, right.

[00:30:03] That, because I've found that most people actually want a much more deeper, thorough understanding of faith and, and how to wrestle with things. But we've kind of been given this impression, we've been spoonfed, this, that, that. Oh, well if your faith isn't simple, you're over complicating it. And really, I would argue faith is super complicated. Yeah. And when we try to oversimplify a super complicated thing, it's gonna fall short.

[00:30:33] Tana: Yeah.

[00:30:34] Don: Right.

[00:30:34] Tana: Yeah.

[00:30:36] Don: So anyhow.

[00:30:36] Sarah: Yeah. So do you think emotions, some emotions are inherently bad? Or do you think emotions are morally neutral?

[00:30:41] Don: I think, I think emotional emotions are morally neutral. However, I would say that I think people react either ourself when that emotion rises or outside of us, others watching that emotion rise in us make assumptions about it, right? So whether it's jealousy, envy, you know, these are some things and you know, maybe we can debate.

[00:31:11] I always get confused. Am I conflating emotion with something else when I talk about like envy and stuff like that? So, yeah, I think, I think, thank you for asking the question. I do think that emotions are morally neutral. I think that certain emotions tend to rear up in unhealthy situations and therefore we have attached them or associate with them unhealth.

[00:31:39] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:31:40] And they can lead to unhealthy or harmful behaviors, right? Right. So we have to think about what is the emotion? How are we expressing the emotion? How is it impacting those in our world?

[00:31:49] Tana: I think that's the key, is how it's expressed and what actions come as a result of it. And one of, one of my favorite things that I learned from a therapist [00:32:00] was, that emotions are okay.

[00:32:03] Like, like don't, because I was beating myself up for feeling certain things and he was like, it's, it's okay that you feel that. And you trying to push that feeling down is more detrimental to you.

[00:32:21] Sarah: Right.

[00:32:21] Tana: And so he encouraged me to sit with the emotions.

[00:32:24] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:32:24] Tana: Instead of trying to be like, well, I don't wanna feel jealous or angry or whatever right now, just sit with it and allow it to be and then move on from there.

[00:32:36] Sarah: Right. Yeah. Which reminds me of the saying that like, emotions are information.

[00:32:40] Tana: Yes.

[00:32:41] Sarah: Because what is making you angry. Yeah. And I've also heard it talked about that anger is often a surface emotion. There's another almost always, or, or always maybe that an emotion underneath it, like sadness or fear. But that when we can sit with these feelings and admit them and then ask the question like, what has led me to this? Because we do need to get angry about some things.

[00:33:08] Tana: Mm, yeah,

[00:33:10] Don: absolutely.

[00:33:10] Sarah: And I think that there's like an overemphasis of like, praise for controlling emotions that like, I feel like personally, like somehow I got that message that it's just better to be in control of your emotions.

[00:33:28] That which might be why I'm slow to cry or the you know, it reminds me too of like how we treat children, that when they're crying, we just want them to stop crying as quickly as possible. And we want them to be in control of their emotions because it makes us uncomfortable, right. So, constantly shutting them down or just trying to distract them or quick fix.

[00:33:57] And, and I remember reading something about [00:34:00] like, just encouraging parents to let their children cry when they're crying. And not to interrupt the cry. And so if your child's upset, just let them finish the cry, that that's much more healthy physiologically to just let them get through the end of it.

[00:34:17] Don: And like not close them, lock them into a room until they're done crying.

[00:34:22] Sarah: No. Like, hold them, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just hold them and create a space for them to feel that entire cry until they're at the point where, oh my goodness, this just reminds me that like I remember growing up feeling like if I start crying, I'm never gonna stop.

[00:34:42] It felt so much pain inside that if I let myself start crying, I'm never gonna it literal. Like I literally believed I would never, ever stop. So I would just not let myself start crying because there was so much hurt in, in my in my life that like, it was just so I didn't have that safe space to just cry.

[00:35:04] And yeah. So then I just end up thinking that it's, that it just felt like so much that there was never gonna be an end. So maybe that's part of it that's important to experience that like, yes, you cry, but there is an end to it.

[00:35:19] Don: Right.

[00:35:19] Sarah: You know, you do get to get to the end of expressing that feeling and something happens on the other side of it and it's not terrible.

[00:35:26] Tana: You know, what you were saying about the Oh, I can't remember what you just said in this, in what you just said. That reminded me, but it took me back to what you said earlier about it being about control. Yeah. Oh. That we've discounted certain emotions and we, we think certain emotions are, are bad.

[00:35:49] And and I think we see that in greater society as a whole with this emphasis on civil discourse, right?

[00:35:58] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:35:58] Tana: Where there's like [00:36:00] acceptable ways to express anger, well, anger is not one of the acceptable ways to, to express dissatisfaction

[00:36:09] Sarah: yeah

[00:36:09] Tana: with oppression or, you know bad laws or, you know, whatever.

[00:36:17] And it is this, this strange thing where like, where we're like, here's these acceptable avenues and you have to present this logical, calm, argument for your thing, but then we

[00:36:29] Sarah: Did you file the right paper or did you smash a window?

[00:36:31] Tana: Right?

[00:36:32] Right. Exactly. But then we cut off a lot of those avenues to people.

[00:36:37] And then when people express anger and dissatisfaction in other ways, we're like, well, you didn't do it the acceptable way. And you know, so yeah, I think a lot of it really does go back to control.

[00:36:49] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:36:51] Tana: Interesting.

[00:36:52] Sarah: So what do we do with this verse that the heart is deceitful above all things?

[00:36:59] Don: Well, I think we have to understand in context first of all.

[00:37:02] Right.

[00:37:02] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:37:03] Don: They're about ready to go into exile or they're already in exile in Jeremiah.

[00:37:08] Tana: And is that where the verse is?

[00:37:11] Sarah: Jeremiah 17:9.

[00:37:13] Don: Yeah. And so in that passage, this is more about a people group who may decide not to fight against what's happening and because it's just gonna be easier to relent, right?

[00:37:30] So like, this has nothing to do with Sarah Mainardi, your emotions, like your heart's deceptive. No. And also the heart is not emotions in the Hebrew Bible, it's the center of everything that makes you human. It's reasoning, it's thought, it's, it's everything. So we would say it's our mind right in, in the way that maybe it's evolved, right? We would say, you know, your mind is deceitful. We wouldn't call it [00:38:00] heart is deceitful.

[00:38:01] Tana: Yeah. Right.

[00:38:02] And so so yeah. This, this passage is so abusive

[00:38:07] Sarah: Yeah

[00:38:07] Don: to so many people.

[00:38:09] Tana: Yeah.

[00:38:09] Don: And it's so sad because it's really easy to determine what it means when you read the book of Jeremiah and realizes that this prophet is talking to the people in the midst of a very big event that is happening.

[00:38:24] Yeah. And the people are wavering. If, if this was done as a halftime speech, people would be like, that's the greatest speech ever. But since we're able to pluck out one line out of the midst of this, this story, we then made it about individuals and made it about emotions. And instead, this is really the profit being like, you know, I can see you're wavering as a people.

[00:38:50] And remember that that's that which is causing you to waiver your heart, that is causing you to waiver. It's, it's lying to you. You need to fight against this. . . Right? That's beautiful. Like, yeah.

[00:39:02] Tana: Right. Like that, that's, that's, that's more hopeful. Like "have strength. Be hopeful." Yeah. Be, yeah. Not like "your heart is gonna trick you."

[00:39:10] Don: Yeah.

[00:39:10] Like, like yeah. Your heart is just waiting to pounce on you with some bad advice.

[00:39:17] Sarah: Yeah. And it was kind of like, as you were sharing that, I could just picture like using this verse, convincing people that they can't trust their heart, but if you can't trust your heart, like what can you trust? Oh, I guess I can trust the pastor so I can trust.

[00:39:32] So it's another like little,

[00:39:34] Don: oh, a hundred percent

[00:39:35] Tana: little nudge towards authoritarian,

[00:39:36] Sarah: towards control.

[00:39:37] Yeah.

[00:39:37] Yeah. I found this. Sorry, did you have more to

[00:39:39] say

[00:39:40] about that?

[00:39:40] Don: I was just gonna say pretty much everything in Western- and when I say everything, it's, it's bombastic. I get it. So it's, it's too big of a blanket, but almost everything.

[00:39:53] There you go. That's better... that is spoken from a modern western, [00:40:00] white male dominated pulpit, intended or not, leads to maintaining the power in that one spot.

[00:40:12] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:40:13] Don: Right.

[00:40:14] It's just, it's how we've been taught to think about faith. It's been taught how, it's how we've been taught to interpret the Bible.

[00:40:20] It's how we've been taught to present the scriptures a hermeneutic that points to that, all of that. So whether or not the pastor is a product of the system or is furthering the system with intention, most of the pulpits in America that are, again white Protestant pulpits are, are, are fighting every Sunday to maintain the power over the congregation that's in their midst instead of shepherding them.

[00:40:56] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:40:56] Don: They are lording over them.

[00:40:58] Sarah: Yeah. And I think that it connects with like why worship teams like are trying to create an emotional experience. Hmm. And why the pressure to be in church every Sunday and that like, this is where happiness is, this is what you're supposed to be doing. And it reminded me, as you were saying, of, I think this was a Sunday at our church, probably a couple years ago by now, and our friend was there and he was like, oh, my wife's not here because she's on a bike ride.

[00:41:32] . . And I just remember you celebrating that.

[00:41:34] Don: Yeah.

[00:41:35] Sarah: That you were so happy that she was like out having a bike ride. Yeah. And like, I think that that's such a beautiful thing because she's out finding happiness. And to me, when we explore and, and spend time with things that make us happy, it's, it's also a time to connect with God.

[00:41:55] Don: Absolutely.

[00:41:55] Sarah: Because he created those desires within us. So to be able to [00:42:00] celebrate that somebody is, has found the time and the space to be able to do something that they love is amazing. It reminds me of that, what is it, the char-, is it Chariots A Fire? The runner who said, when I run, I feel God's pleasure.

[00:42:15] And he, he was like in a missionary family and

[00:42:18] Don: him and I are very different.

[00:42:19] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:42:21] I don't know that

[00:42:22] Tana: I do not feel, feel God's presence running.

[00:42:25] Sarah: I think it's Eric Liddell I might be wrong. And his sister looked down on him for like running in these races and like and because you should be doing the Lord's work instead of running in these races.

[00:42:37] But he was really talented. And one of his famous quotes is, "when I run, I feel God's pleasure." And, but it's more celebrated to do the things that we've created as God's work that somebody has told us is God's work than get going out and finding those pleasures and those unique designs that God has created us is it's celebrated a lot less.

[00:43:00] Don: Yeah.

[00:43:00] Tana: Yeah.

[00:43:02] Don: So you were gonna say something about Jeremiah 17?

[00:43:04] Sarah: Yeah. I found this,

[00:43:05] Don: or not 17.

[00:43:05] Sarah: I found another perspective. This is from David Sloan and I thought this was really interesting. I wanna use the notes because I don't want to misspeak it. Well, let me read the verse. So, 17 Jeremiah 17, nine through 10.

[00:43:20] "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? I the Lord, search the heart and examine the mind to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve." So. A lot of times he starts off by acknowledging that people say that you shouldn't follow your heart, your heart's deceitful.

[00:43:42] But he's, what he's pointing out is that he's saying that the heart is hard to understand because he answers that right afterwards, who can understand it? He answers that right afterwards that the Lord can understand it. So Jeremiah was a misunderstood prophet. People thought that he didn't, [00:44:00] wasn't trusting God.

[00:44:02] And so " who is the one whose heart is turned from the Lord and who is the one whose confidence is in the Lord? We may try to discern this ourselves, but the heart is deceitful above all things. So Jeremiah's point seems to be that someone could profess that they have put their trust in the Lord and even think they have put their trust in the Lord when all of this is a mask for what is really going on in their heart.

[00:44:24] Likewise, someone could seem to have a fickle faith, but at their core as a trust that is in the Lord and not in men." So he's not saying that this the heart is deceitful. It's gonna lead you down a sinful path. He's saying that the heart is hard to understand. Who can understand it? The Lord can understand it.

[00:44:45] Tana: Hmm.

[00:44:45] Sarah: So almost comforting himself too, that, like, as a prophet, that he, people looked at him as a prophet who didn't trust God. They didn't think that what he was saying was right. But he knows that God understands all that. So,

[00:45:01] yeah.

[00:45:02] Don: Yeah. I mean, I agree. I, I think that what David Sloan did there is, is, is still keep it as kind of an individual thing, but I, I agree with that premise.

[00:45:12] It, I would just argue. David Sloan and I are not arguing at the moment. Yeah, but that it was more about the Corporateness of all of Israel. Not even the Individualness of Jeremiah. But yeah, it's about am I, are we trusting in God to take care of us and provide for us in this, in this circumstance or what?

[00:45:31] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's definitely been misused, mis and abused and I'll be, what's interesting to me is my experience of people asking me about that passage. I don't think I ever had a male ask me about that passage.

[00:45:48] Sarah: Wow.

[00:45:49] I do. And that just came to me when you first asked about it, is that when I think back as a pastor over the years of who has [00:46:00] brought that question to me?

[00:46:05] Off the top of my head, I can only think of women that have done that.

[00:46:08] Tana: And I have some thoughts on that.

[00:46:13] Don: I thought you might.

[00:46:14] Because I, I've actually been sitting here like just thinking about this. I believe that that verse in particular, but then also some other verses and just sort of tradition and whatever has been weaponized against women when we feel that something is inherently wrong with relationships.

[00:46:40] But we are told that, you know, well the man is the head of the household and we're told complimentary beliefs, like this is a woman's role, this is a man's role. And um, And even the more toxic kinds of things that came from like what's the name? Mark dis, Mark Driscoll, who was very much like "women are basically sex slaves to their husbands."

[00:47:07] Like, you know, it was like all this kind of of stuff. And when we as women are like, this doesn't feel right, this sort of authoritarian male over the woman in a relationship, a woman should just do whatever her husband wants and she's just there to serve him and everything, and we, we go, this doesn't feel right.

[00:47:29] They go, you can't trust your emotions. the heart is deceitful. This is God's plan for you. God's plan is for you to be your husband's helpmeet.

[00:47:39] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:47:40] And that, I think that, I definitely think that's why you have women that, with that question.

[00:47:47] Don: It's even a misappropriation of help meet as well, which, you know, is a term used for God.

[00:47:54] Tana: Right.

[00:47:55] Don: God is our, our, our comfort God is our

[00:47:57] Tana: Thank you for saying I'm godly.

[00:47:59] Don: Yes. [00:48:00] Yeah.

[00:48:00] Tana: So I think, I think that's that's why so many women have come to you and been like, what about this verse? Because Yeah, it's been weaponized.

[00:48:09] Don: Well, it's what's for me, I would say, I never question why is, why are they coming to me and asking me about this question?

[00:48:17] It just never dawned on me that it's been predominantly or exclusively women. It's never been a verse I personally have struggled with ever. Like, I've heard it a ton of times, but it's just not a verse that I've even, I've even given more than a couple minutes of thought to outside of counseling, someone who has used it has been, it has been used towards them as harm.

[00:48:41] Tana: Well, I've even, I've had other women, you know

[00:48:46] Don: well, we've, our very first livestream that we did, A couple months ago where it was open Q&A and it, we did a thing on tough passages. That was the first verse that was brought. And so yeah. It's, it's a shame.

[00:49:04] Tana: Yeah. So , there's so many more things we can talk about and I think we're definitely gonna have a part two.

[00:49:13] So where do we wanna wrap this discussion up today? Yeah.

[00:49:19] Sarah: Well I think this beginning intro is just kind of to open the door to looking at emotions in a different way. Considering that in emotion in, in itself isn't sinful. And it doesn't mean, and I also wanna say too, that there are a lot of things that affect our emotions.

[00:49:48] I think maybe historically some of the difference between men and women have to do that. Women biologically are on a monthly cycle of [00:50:00] hormones where men are, if I understand it correctly, stable in terms of their hormones throughout their lives. . And

[00:50:11] Don: I'm definitely stable. I mean, I'm as stable as it gets.

[00:50:14] Tana: Are you a very stable genius?

[00:50:15] Sarah: If everything's like functioning normally, right? Yeah. I'm terrible at like the science. I always like learn these things and then save like the bare minimum or I just go straight to how does this affect me and then save that. And then I can't explain it , but

[00:50:28] Tana: I feel like that's very relatable.

[00:50:31] Don: I feel seen sarah. Thank you.

[00:50:33] Sarah: But I wanna say that too because you know, as women that we do have these hormonal changes that can influence our emotions. . . So the fact that this idea of emotions not being trustworthy, I think there could be some connection to that because I remember dating a guy in college and like every day, like, or like there, I finally caught onto this like, pattern that like the day before my cycle was gonna start, I always wanted to break up with him

[00:51:03] But in my head I had all these like very real, like good reasons to like end the relationship. But then the next day when my hormone shifted, it was like, oh, all is right in the world. And then it was when I noticed how stark one day was to the next that I'm like, oh, cuz I always knew hormones existed, but I kind of just discounted them and I'm like, oh, I'm logical.

[00:51:24] Like, but like there is, there are biolog, physiological maybe is the right word, things going on that we have to be aware of. Or even in my old age as I like go to doctors and try to like balance my hormones and I've noticed overall changes in my emotions and how I handle them. So I think that's part of the puzzle too, that we can't, we can't take that scientific fact and say all emotions are untrustworthy, but we need to take the whole picture into account.

[00:51:55] So especially as women, if we're thinking about what we're feeling, journaling [00:52:00] about it, which I highly recommend that we can remember the biological as we're assessing what we're feeling and what weight we need to put on with what we're feeling and where we need to move forward. And what we, what action we need to take based on what we're feeling.

[00:52:20] And so the journaling piece, one of the recommendations from Pastor Pete, the author of Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, one of the tools is, he calls it exploring the iceberg. Like this idea that with an iceberg you only see a small part of the iceberg, but underneath the surface is this huge

[00:52:39] Don: Yeah.

[00:52:40] Sarah: You know, think Titanic problem.

[00:52:43] Don: Literally.

[00:52:44] Sarah: Yeah. So all that stuff that's underneath the surface. So what this exercise is, is basically it's kind of like another quadrant. You can put the, an emotion like in each box, like anger happiness, frustration, fear, and then you just kind of journal out where, what you're feeling, what what is making you feel those feelings currently.

[00:53:11] And then you do this over time and then you look back and it's partly you know, one of the things that emotionally healthy spirituality points to is to identify those things that actually do bring you happiness or joy and reflecting on your life of how you can bring, and put your energies towards those things so that if you're going through life and doing something that's constantly causing difficulty or sadness, that that can be a clue of how, and this is kind of, I think like an Ignatian idea.

[00:53:50] Like kind of the daily examen, like what's bringing you closer to God? What is bringing you farther to God? So as you identify those things that bring you pleasure giving permission to build your life around [00:54:00] those things as much as you're able, yeah, we all have to do the dishes that we all have things that are less than desirable, but it's just a tool to number one, process those emotions, get them out on paper and then start to see patterns because when you write it out, you're actually seeing it.

[00:54:15] You're not just stuffing it down and pretending it's not there.

[00:54:18] Tana: Yeah. Yeah. I think it is, it is necessary to recognize the physiological causes of emotions, which probably extends to men as well, cuz I imagine the excess of testosterone builds up to anger. But I do wanna just reiterate that I don't, people weaponize so much the, the monthly cycle against women and that, I just wanna reemphasize like that, that doesn't mean that, that none of those emotions are valid. Right. They might be amplified. Yeah. I mean, you're not married to the guy you were dating at college, right?

[00:55:02] Sarah: Right. Yeah.

[00:55:02] Tana: They, but they might be amplified, but it doesn't mean they're, they're just like, you know, we can just dismiss them.

[00:55:09] Sarah: Yes, exactly.

[00:55:10] Yeah. I just wanted to bring that as part of the argument because I think we want, we wanna look at the whole picture. We don't want to, because it's been weaponized, we don't wanna just not talk about it. You know, like, let's address it and let's talk about it. And like,

[00:55:23] Tana: yes, we get more emotional around our periods, but it doesn't mean that anything we say is invalidated for those five days or whatever.

[00:55:32] Don: Well, if I, if I can give a perspective, oh, please, . Actually, I, I'm not, I'm not. So it, one of the things that I learned way too late in life and also just in Tana and i's marriage relationship, was that when I perceived Tana to be, excuse me, "overreacting" or, you know, or I proceed, oh, this is, [00:56:00] this, this is your monthly cycle, right?

[00:56:01] Like, you're menstruating, here we go. Right? What I realized that's so simple, basic, and just needs to be taught is that regardless of whether or not, I think in this moment there is a heightened response that is too much or not enough or what? The response doesn't fit my manicured expectation.

[00:56:30] Emphasis on man. That you're still feeling that.

[00:56:36] Tana: Yes.

[00:56:36] Don: Right?

[00:56:36] Sarah: Yes.

[00:56:37] Don: Regardless of whether or not I think it's reasonable is insignificant. You are still feeling that emotion. And my job as a person who loves you and cares about you, is to say, what can I do in this moment to care for you and where that emotion's coming from?

[00:56:58] Tana: And listeners watchers, he does.

[00:57:02] Don: Because that's, but that was a switch for me that started in my household way too late, but I would argue has impacted every other aspect of my life because I just, I, I often try to com remind myself, take a breath, if I feel like the emotion or the reaction coming at me is, is greater than what it maybe needs to be, I need to still take a breath instead of responding to it as if you're overreacting, I need to say, this person really feels this angry right now.

[00:57:33] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:57:34] Don: And me saying, you're overreacting. I don't know about you guys, but my experience with that has not been that it reduces the anger that the other person,

[00:57:41] Tana: oh, I am? Oh, I'll stop.

[00:57:44] Sarah: So it's like the idea of don't make a mountain out of a molehill

[00:57:47] Don: right.

[00:57:48] Sarah: But, but it

[00:57:49] Don: is a mountain right now.

[00:57:50] Sarah: Yeah. But it's not, yeah. It's not a molehill to you.

[00:57:53] Tana: Correct. Right.

[00:57:54] Don: And, and for us on the receiving end of someone else's emotions, we need to be [00:58:00] willing to say, okay, maybe this is a mountain/molehill moment, but they're really feeling the mountain. Yeah. And what can I do to help them either move to a space where they can see it's a mole hill?

[00:58:15] And again, this isn't about solving or fixing people's emotions this is a really delicate to talk about.

[00:58:19] Tana: Yes, it really is.

[00:58:20] Don: Because, but it's acknowledging that I think at the end of the day, that's where I wanna leave it.

[00:58:25] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:58:26] Don: You need to acknowledge that the person is really feeling that emotion.

[00:58:32] Tana: Yeah.

[00:58:32] Don: Regardless of whether it's accurate to the situation or not is irrelevant, right? They're really feeling that. And it's our responsibility as people of care, people of compassion, people of mercy, people of faith, to let a person feel those emotions, as you were saying earlier about letting a child cry. We need to let our, our fellow sojourners in life, feel their emotion, give them a safe space to express it, and then after they have a good cry, they have a good moment of feeling that emotion. Then maybe we can resolve some of the things that has created it.

[00:59:09] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me of the comparison we've talked about before. The priest versus prophet.

[00:59:13] Don: Yes.

[00:59:14] Sarah: Like instead of being the prophet in that moment, or the teacher or trying to solve the problem, being the priest and, and being there to comfort and intercede with God and, and, and be that.

[00:59:25] And then

[00:59:26] Don: Yes.

[00:59:27] Sarah: Later.

[00:59:27] Don: Yeah. But we tend to go straight to prophet

[00:59:30] Sarah: yeah.

[00:59:32] Tana: Well that's our time. There's clearly a lot more we have to talk about around the subject of emotions. So we'll just dangle that out there as incentive to come back and listen next week. So thank you all for joining us today.

[00:59:51] If you wanna learn more about the podcast or find links to our YouTube channel and other things, you can go to ajffpodcast.com. If you wanna support [01:00:00] us, you can go to buy me a coffee.com/ajff. And we'll see you next time. Thanks. Thank you. Bye.